Pocket knife of the 1800's west?

[jackknife]

Okay, I know many here has read Zane Grey, or Louis LaAmore, or both. I was sitting here wondering, when you think of the western, what pocket knife do you think of? I mean, when Matt Dillon was keeping Dodge City safe, Paladin roaming around doing his hired gun thing, and the trail boss was telling Rowdy Yates to "Head 'em up, move 'em out" on Rawhide, what knife do you think a hard working cowpoke or wagon driver or 'squatters' would have had on him? I figure it would have been whatever was common at the general store in town, whatever that may have been. I figure trappers weren't around until the 1890's or so, and the premium stockman was an 1880's evolution of the older cattle knife. But would a thre blade knife have been expensive for a run of the mill cowpoke or livery stable hand?

Opinions?

Carl.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

I've read that cowboys had both stockmen/cattle knives, and a fixed blade, but kept the fixed blade in their bed roll. The big stock knives were their go to knife. However, didn't those "hit the shelves" towards the latter part of the 19th century? So what did the vaqueros and cow punchers use until then? Did they wait and sit on their hands until a proper knife came along? Well, the gauchos used their gaucho knives, even when eating. I'm guessing the Vaqueros had their proper knife. I'm guessing the cowboys carried whatever cheap jack knife they could get ahold of. Did the trail boss, or ranch boss, keep some extras around? What happened if your blade broke, while you were out in the middle of nowhere on the south forty? I think these guys were more worried about saving their coins for the cathouse in town, than saving their money and keeping an extra knife in their stores back at the bunkhouse.

Most of these guys needed something that would hold up to abuse from sunup to sundown. Bowie knives were too cumbersome and would probably have been the assault rifles of their day. They wanted a simple tool. Nothing fancy, nothing a dude would take out on the pampas.

These guys were a rough and tumble crowd, and there are reasons that they raised hell in town after they got paid, I guess that a straight couple months on the prairie will do that to you.

I think they carried jack knives that were easy to open with thick gloves on, and carried a fixed blade butcher knife in their bed roll. Probably not too different from the mountain men that preceded them in the annals of the American west.

How many of them could afford a Henry lever action repeater, a Colt SAA, and a fancy stock knife? I'm betting they carried whatever Sharps rifle they used in the Civil War or their father used in the Civil War, a dime store jack knife and maybe an old Colt Navy Walker if they could afford it. From what I've read of history, these cowboys were the Deadliest Catch guys of their day. They made good money fast, but spent it all on whiskey and brothels.

 

[midnight flyer]

Now this could be an interesting thread. I personally would have assumed that most folder carriers had some kind of Barlow or large clasp style knife since the folks you mentioned were essentially the blue collar working men of their day. Those are the knives I read referenced in period written works by Twain, Bearce, etc.

Silly me. I was intrigued enough to search that and found a huge assortment of knifes in all different styles and configurations that were around at that time. There were a lot of trade specific knives built and a lot of knives out there with hoof picks on them for ranch hands, farmers, muleskinners, trail drivers and anyone else that relied on a hoofed animal.

Most of the working knives seem to be one or two blades affairs of the same profile of blade, one large and one small, equal ended on a single spring. I was really surprised at how many of the folding knives had metal handles.

Still, I would bet that most of the working men of their day carried a large clasp style knife of some sort. You could use it to skin small game, pick a rock from a hoof, stir your beans, cut rope and repair saddlery, cut bacon in the morning, and cut up tinder for a fire. I think the generic clasp knife (a thousand different definitions of that knife!)
would have been the ticket for the average guy, which would have certainly been available as part of the common gear found at the general store.

Robert

 

[mnblade]

Okay, I know many here has read Zane Grey, or Louis LaAmore, or both. I was sitting here wondering, when you think of the western, what pocket knife do you think of? I mean, when Matt Dillon was keeping Dodge City safe, Paladin roaming around doing his hired gun thing, and the trail boss was telling Rowdy Yates to "Head 'em up, move 'em out" on Rawhide, what knife do you think a hard working cowpoke or wagon driver or 'squatters' would have had on him?

Over and over again in Western fiction, you'll read about guys wearing or carrying gear from their time in the Civil War. So I always assumed the most likely candidate would be a typical hefty, single-blade clasp knife like you might have found in the pocket of a Johnny Reb or Billy Yank marching off to war. Something like you see here. Either that, or maybe a Barlow.

Nice timing for this thread, by the way. I happen to be in the middle of a Western fiction bender right now. Over the past few months, I've read probably 15-20 books by Louis L'Amour and Elmer Kelton. My Kindle is chock full of them. The knife content (or lack thereof) has been something of a letdown, to be honest. Whenever they discuss rifles or pistols, they're very particular and descriptive. But with knives it's usually just "he cut the rope with his belt knife..." OR it's so over the top that it's silly: "He carried a pearl-handled double-edged dagger with a handle butt the shape of the Maltese Cross, and a blade forged from the finest steel ever produced in India that was honed to a razor's edge blah blah blah."

If Louis L. were still alive and writing, I'd urge him to hire Carl as a consulting editor! :thumbup:

-- Mark

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Didn't the mule skinner carry a smaller Green River style knife? The barlow would be a great idea. Cheap, well made but easier to get a new one. My comment about cowboys making money hand over fist, while true for some outfits, was probably not the norm for all. My original intent was to convey that these guys lived fast, hard and loose, and that most of their wages were probably sunk on a glass of watered down beer or whiskey, and with a lady of the night, than on a good knife or gun.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

If Louis L. were still alive and writing, I'd urge him to hire Carl as a consulting editor! :thumbup:

-- Mark

YEP! :thumbup:

 

[555]

Maybe they carried something like this.

OR

The Barlow knife, a folding pocket utility knife, was introduced by the Russell Cutlery in the 1870's. The Barlow knife was first produced in England by Obadiah Barlow in the 1600's. The knife gained a very high reputation as a working knife. The reputation spread to America where they became very popular. The knives shown here have steel blades with bone handles.

 

[pinnah]

I was digging around the Tandy Leather craft web site over the holiday's (my kid was making me a sheath for my H-15) and found this bit very interesting regarding the history of leather tooling.

When Cortez conquered Mexico in the early 16th century, leather artistry came boldly into the New World. The Conquistadores brought horses and with them came the need for saddles and other horse gear. Spain had long been a leader in leather artistry and the skilled craftsmen who came over to the New Land coupled their vast knowledge with the inspiration they leaned from the beautiful floral patterns to be found all about them. Thus came the transition from basic geometric designs dating back to medieval times to the floral patterns of modern artistry.

Full link: http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/...rvices/leathercraft-abc/leathercraft-abc.aspx

I've often wondered if there was a connection between the Spanish Navaja and the Buck 110

Buck 110 and 112 by Pinnah, on Flickr

More broadly... I wonder if we should think about different parts of Europe (or the world) having different design influences in different parts of North America during the 1700s and 1800s. Namely, I would think that British and German designs had more influence in the US Northeast (jack knives) and later, the upper midwest (sod busters) and (more speculatively) I wonder if Spanish designs had more of an influence in the US southwest (as they did in terms of leather craft). Although, I guess we should expect German influence (sodbusters, perhaps leading to the "cowboy knife") in the Texas given the German influence there.

Another place where I wonder about the Spanish fighting knife influence is the association of the Navaja's clip point and the emergence of the Bowie style fighting knife.

Does anybody have access to Levine's book? Any insight there?

I would expect: Navajas (or derivatives), 3 blade cattle knives and sod buster style knives.

 

[ken erickson]

I still think this picture really tells volumes. The steamship Arabia was headed WEST when it sunk in 1856 in the Missouri river.
These knives were among the knives that were headed to general stores. I think like today, there was a large variation of knives carried and used.
Just as most folks assume that the cowboy carried a SAA Colt revolver due to countless TV shows, western novels and movies. Far from being accurate!

 

[black mamba]

I'm diggin' that "Mountain Man" in stag, whose butt is right in the center of the light reflection on the glass.

No wonder Queen calls them that!

 

[jackknife]

I always figured that the period from just after the war of northern aggression to the 1890's as the most pivotal in design of pocket knives. Living in Maryland, I'm very close to a lot of both civil war and revolutionary war sites with their own museums. A lot of the pocket knives recovered as artists seem to be of the moderate size single blade knives. But between 1865 and 1900, so many designs came out and became popular, both among the blue collar working class and the gentry. Multi blades became more popular closer to 1900, and a lot of the 1880's era knives seem to have the two blade design. At least it seems that way to me. I just fond myself wondering time to time, in that age of great change, did the down to earth working guy, change too? I could imagine a freight wagon driver choosing a harness jack, but I'm not sure when the harness jack made it's appearance. I imagine a cowpoke in the 1880's having a cattle knife or even one of the new fangled premium stockmen, or maybe that would have been a top hands or outfits ramrod's knife since he made a bit more than a regular cowboy.

I also imagine that economic factors could be the biggest thing. Like Dan said, these cowboys lived fast and spent fast. But what about the guys who had a real job? Would a stage coach driver for Wells Fargo earn about the same equivalent as a guy now who drives a Grayhound bus? And the man who worked on the Denver-Rio Grand railroad as a conductor would have a steady income like a man who nowadays worked on Amtrack passenger trains. They'd have more disposable income for the purchase pf a new fangled multi bladed knife. May be even one of those lobster wonders from the heyday of Sheffield? And I have seen English made barlow pattern pocket knives. I'd think that the people who made the real bog money, the saloon owners and brothel owners in trail head towns like Dodge and Elsworth had lots of income for the nice stuff. Big world of difference between a cowpoke and a faro dealer. Would their choice of pocket knife show thier economic stationstation? The cowboy with a plain saw cut bone handle barlow, and the brothel owner with a pearl scaled Sheffield lobster complete with cigar piercing tool and nail file to keep his hands manicured for the ladies. Kept of course in a vest pocket opposite the pearl handle Remington .41 derringer for the occasional trouble.

Carl.

 

[Jack Black]

What a great thread and some fascinating posts already. That's a very interesting pic too Ken.

Western novels seem to have gone out of fashion here over the past 30 years. My grandad had a huge collection, people said he read so many cowboy books that he walked bow-legged!

 

[jackknife]

I still think this picture really tells volumes. The steamship Arabia was headed WEST when it sunk in 1856 in the Missouri river.
These knives were among the knives that were headed to general stores. I think like today, there was a large variation of knives carried and used.
Just as most folks assume that the cowboy carried a SAA Colt revolver due to countless TV shows, western novels and movies. Far from being accurate!

Thank you Ken, I couldn't recall who had that photo. I love it,, and it's surprising that in 1856, that display shows a really wide varriety of pocket knives, in both size and patterns. I'm always surprised at the congress patterns. I guess I always thought of the congress as a southern planter type of thing.

You're rght about the perception that everyone carried a Colt revolver. The darn thing cost more than most people made in a month or two. Not too mention there were Remngtons, Spiller and Burr, Adams, and a host of other guns more affordable. And every sodbuster, saloon or store keep, stage guard and marshall had a shotgun. Side by side barrels stuffed with blue whistlers end a fight real quick.

Carl.

 

[jackknife]

My grandad had a huge collection, people said he read so many cowboy books that he walked bow-legged!

I almost spit tea on my keyboard!

 

[silenthunterstudios]

My father found a few of the Time Life Old West leather bound books when I was a kid. I don't remember any of the knives off the top of my head, but I do remember the book explicitly relating that high noon gun fights were a rarity. Most killing was done with a shotgun, at close range, usually from behind. While the dandy gunfighter was fiddling around with his pistol, hoping it would fire, the brawler would come in close with his shotgun, and, well, it didn't end well. Conversely, I have read that before the advent of the repeating rifle/gun, the knife did a lot of dirty work. That's obvious, but a lot of people were taken out with gamblers knives and bowies, than with your everyday work folder. I've seen many books about "real" gun use during the Old West and read one or two blurbs, but I'd really like to read about the knives used.

By the way, if you're looking for a good book, check out L'Amours "autobiography". This is one of the best books I've ever read. Education of a Wandering Man.

I've read a few of his short story collections, and while I always enjoyed them, they were sort of like an NCIS episode, in that the same thing always happened. What was that same recurring theme? The hero is doublecrossed, and has to make it across the desert, finding a watering hole at the last moment. Well, that happened to L'Amour, when he almost died on a job when he was a teenager. He'd seen and done more than most three times his age when he turned 18! I like his stories, but man, his own life seemed like a lot of fun.

Trying to remember the grittier westerns I've seen, like the Wild Bunch, Tombstone etc, that might've had some good knife content thrown in. What were they using in Lonesome Dove, at the beginning of the series. A couple of the hands were playing mumblypeg with a couple jack knives and clasp knives. While Deadwood and Tombstone might have been exaggerations of history, they tried to show the "real" side of the Old West.

 

[Jack Black]

I almost spit tea on my keyboard!

Thought you might like this Carl.

A Northern English folk singer called Mike Harding, had an early 70's hit with a song called 'The Rochdale Cowboy'. Rochdale is a small grim town on the wrong side of the Pennines. The lyrics, sung in a thick, Lancashire accent are as follows:

ROCHDALE COWBOY

(Spoken bit
Never before in the history of mankind has the story been told of those brave frontiersmen who carved out a passage in the Northwest and made it a place fit for heroes to live in. This is the story of one such man, sausage tosser extraordinar his name Fred Ackroyd

(Singing bit
CHORUS: It's hard being a cowboy in Rochdale.
Spurs don't fit right on me clogs.
Yee-haa
It's hard being a cowboy in Rochdale,
'Cause people laugh when I ride past on our Alsatian dog.

Almost every night
There's a tripe and cowheel fight
In our local pie and pea saloon,
And poor old Uncle Fred
He spent 18 months in bed
'Cause he tried to kiss a girl who's a boy named Sue. CHORUS

When the sun shines in the west,
That's the time that I like best,
And I go out punching cows with me brother Jack;
And poor old Uncle Fred,
He spent 18 months in bed
'Cause he punched one cow and she went and punched him back. CHORUS

In the local temperance bar,
We'd go and have a jar.
There's sarsaparilla and liquorice juice to drink;
And poor old Uncle Fred,
He spent 18 months in bed
'Cause he supped the stuff he used to clean the sink. CHORUS

Yer know when us cowpokes hit town,
We go an' 'orses round
With them good-time girls Elsie and Mucky Peg.
When Auntie Kitty found Uncle Fred,
He spent 18 months in bed
'Cause you can't run fast with your pants halfway down your legs.

I dare say there's a video on Youtube

Jack

 

[rune1279]

Ah, this thread reminds me!

I was at the museum in Fort Collins, CO around Christmas, and they had a little display of the personal effects of a soldier who had been posted there around 1865. So for what it's worth, Sergeant Luther Remington carried this:

My cellphone is a pretty horrible camera, but, from memory:
--Main blade is a sheepsfoot somewhere between 2.5" and 3"
--A small pen secondary is tucked in front of it, all but invisible in the picture
--Corkscrew and hoof pick(?) on the side opposite
--The handle seemed to be bone or ivory

All in all, it seemed like a pretty handy thing for a cavalryman to have, and quite a bit fancier than I would've expected.

 

[ken erickson]

I just paged through my copy of a 1885 George Wostenholm and son reprint catalog(great reference material by the way) and I would say the vast majority of knives are multi-blade knives. This was before the 1890 Mckinley Tariff Act which radically changed the cutlery market in the US. A large percentage of the knives in the catalog were slated for export to the US.

Wostenholm shows 30+ distinct Congress patterns ranging in size, number of blades and plain to fancy examples.
While showing many patterns that could be called "cattle knife" there is only one pattern that could be considered a "stock knife" or stockman. For those that may have this book, Plate 26 , pattern 993.

Of course this catalog is not a definitive answer to your original question but I think it is representative of knives being sold in the USA in that time period.
I also am surprised by the great variety of patterns offered.

Rune1279,
Thanks for posting that! I think that is a perfect example that shows there was a large variety of knives being carried.
The knife more than likely is a Sheffield made knife and while it seems fancy to us now, in the day it was a multi-tool much the same as a Leatherman is today.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Jack, I almost choked on my coffee reading that! That's classic and I'm going to look for it when I get home tonight. I'll post it here if I can find it. Maybe someone else will beat me to it hint hint nudge nudge .

 

[555]

Jack, I almost choked on my coffee reading that! That's classic and I'm going to look for it when I get home tonight. I'll post it here if I can find it. Maybe someone else will beat me to it hint hint nudge nudge .

[video=youtube;cey_4r-ILxs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cey_4r-ILxs[/video]