Polished edges

freq18hz

freq18hz

Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Messages
1,093
Hi all,

I know this has been covered many times in various ways, but I'm asking this so I can provide my own info about my setup. Apologies in advance if this is redundant:

I started with a Sharpmaker, and then DMT stones, and then the DMT Aligner.

I can put a good "shaving sharp" or working edge on my knives, but I cannot whittle hairs, cut toilet paper, or fix really screwed up edges easily.


I've been eyeing an Edge Pro and the Wicked Edge for awhile, and I'm finally going to jump.

I'm looking to put a highly polished, perfect, better than factory edge on my expensive folders.

Can someone please give me some ideas? I really don't want to invest in yet another sharpening system that doesn't work for me.

Thanks,

-Freq
 
freq18hz said:
Hi all,

I know this has been covered many times in various ways, but I'm asking this so I can provide my own info about my setup. Apologies in advance if this is redundant:

I started with a Sharpmaker, and then DMT stones, and then the DMT Aligner.

I can put a good "shaving sharp" or working edge on my knives, but I cannot whittle hairs, cut toilet paper, or fix really screwed up edges easily.


I've been eyeing an Edge Pro and the Wicked Edge for awhile, and I'm finally going to jump.

I'm looking to put a highly polished, perfect, better than factory edge on my expensive folders.

Can someone please give me some ideas? I really don't want to invest in yet another sharpening system that doesn't work for me.

Thanks,

-Freq
Click to expand...

No disrespect to ANY system out there OR it's fan base. With the way the WEPS is set up, whats available and innovations coming as we speak AND 20% off still being offered - look no farther.
IF you don't love it - Return it! Guarantee - 30 day full money back guarantee. No restocking charges.
:thumbup:
 
Pardon me for being redundant with this (and the photo that I've posted many times before), but just let me say that the Edge Pro allows someone like me to produce a mirror edge - which is something that I could never remotely approach with free hand or the Sharpmaker. In fact, I could not even get a knife "sharp" on a Sharpmaker.

The Edge Pro is a little spendy at over $200, but its close to foolproof in my view. Being a knife nut, its one of the best things I've purchased in a long time.

IMG_0300.jpg

Edge after some use and abuse.
 
I agree with Powernoodle that the Edgepro is a great system if you want a perfect polished edge. The thing is if you want to reprofile or fix a heavily damaged edge it is going to take some time and effort. The guided systems out there definitely help you get an even polished bevel but it is not necessarily easy or quick. If you want easy and quick I think you'll have to buy and learn to use a belt sander or paper wheels.
 
freq18hz said:
Hi all,

I know this has been covered many times in various ways, but I'm asking this so I can provide my own info about my setup. Apologies in advance if this is redundant:

I started with a Sharpmaker, and then DMT stones, and then the DMT Aligner.

I can put a good "shaving sharp" or working edge on my knives, but I cannot whittle hairs, cut toilet paper, or fix really screwed up edges easily.


I've been eyeing an Edge Pro and the Wicked Edge for awhile, and I'm finally going to jump.

I'm looking to put a highly polished, perfect, better than factory edge on my expensive folders.

Can someone please give me some ideas? I really don't want to invest in yet another sharpening system that doesn't work for me.
Thanks,

-Freq
Click to expand...

Its not the tool.
 
I do not want to be rude here, as I am sure the above poster did not, but it is NOT THE EQUIPMENT.

For instance, in my case, I have a sharpmaker, DMT Diafold xfine (9 micron), leather strops in 3 micron, 1 micron, 1/2 micron.

When I come off the sharpmaker, the edge will tree top and/or whittle hair. The 9 micron DMT (which is 10+ years old and probably polishing finer than 9 microns) gets it a tiny bit better, and stropping for 2-3 minutes on each compound removes all scratches from the bevel leaving an insanely sharp/polished/smooth edge. If I want toothy edge, after stropping I run once or twice per side on the dmt xfine in a microbevel fashion. The MICRO-bevel is only the width of a couple hairs.

My largest sharpening revelation came when i realized that I want fully removing the burr, I was "flip-flopping" it over to each side.

When i learned to microbevel properly, removing all hint of a burr, that is when I experienced ULTRA sharp polished edges.

What advice I think you need with your current equipment, LIGHTER STROKES WHEN YOU ARE COMING TO THE END OF YOUR SHARPENING. When finishing my edges on stones/sharpmaker, and to a lesser degree the strop, I use feather light touch of blade to sharpening implement. This mean the burr is getting ground off, not flopped over.

I have a friend who buys a new $150-250 kitchen knife every 6 months (for about 5 years) and "lends" me his "old" knives. He does not know how to sharpen. Just the other day I made him realize his track record with knife buying, and his kitchen full of knives. Lent him my sharpmaker to get him started, and even he can put a tree topping edge on a blade. Being shown how to use the implement properly, and not use too much pressure when coming to the end of the process is why he was succesful. At first, he was just pressing too hard...

Try this before spending $300 please.

Again, if you want another toy, the WEPS looks like a cool toy and I dont doubt it's effectiveness. I would MUCH rather use one of those than the PITA of say japanese whetstones with the constant lapping/flattening and washing and wetting e.t.c. There are easier ways to get to the same end result. I am sure, even with the WEPS that a proper technique will yield better results than a poor one....

JC
 
Jameson said:
I do not want to be rude here, as I am sure the above poster did not, but it is NOT THE EQUIPMENT.

For instance, in my case, I have a sharpmaker, DMT Diafold xfine (9 micron), leather strops in 3 micron, 1 micron, 1/2 micron.

When I come off the sharpmaker, the edge will tree top and/or whittle hair. The 9 micron DMT (which is 10+ years old and probably polishing finer than 9 microns) gets it a tiny bit better, and stropping for 2-3 minutes on each compound removes all scratches from the bevel leaving an insanely sharp/polished/smooth edge. If I want toothy edge, after stropping I run once or twice per side on the dmt xfine in a microbevel fashion. The MICRO-bevel is only the width of a couple hairs.

My largest sharpening revelation came when i realized that I want fully removing the burr, I was "flip-flopping" it over to each side.

When i learned to microbevel properly, removing all hint of a burr, that is when I experienced ULTRA sharp polished edges.

What advice I think you need with your current equipment, LIGHTER STROKES WHEN YOU ARE COMING TO THE END OF YOUR SHARPENING. When finishing my edges on stones/sharpmaker, and to a lesser degree the strop, I use feather light touch of blade to sharpening implement. This mean the burr is getting ground off, not flopped over.

I have a friend who buys a new $150-250 kitchen knife every 6 months (for about 5 years) and "lends" me his "old" knives. He does not know how to sharpen. Just the other day I made him realize his track record with knife buying, and his kitchen full of knives. Lent him my sharpmaker to get him started, and even he can put a tree topping edge on a blade. Being shown how to use the implement properly, and not use too much pressure when coming to the end of the process is why he was succesful. At first, he was just pressing too hard...

Try this before spending $300 please.

Again, if you want another toy, the WEPS looks like a cool toy and I dont doubt it's effectiveness. I would MUCH rather use one of those than the PITA of say japanese whetstones with the constant lapping/flattening and washing and wetting e.t.c. There are easier ways to get to the same end result. I am sure, even with the WEPS that a proper technique will yield better results than a poor one....

JC
Click to expand...


I don't disagree with this. This is why I made a separate post, for my needs.

I've put a lot of time in, and I don't think I'm going to get any better with the sharpmaker or the DMT aligner. I can get shaving sharp, but nowhere close to tree topping/hair whittling/toilet paper cutting sharp.

In fact, I've never even seen a knife that sharp.


-Freq
 
Then I would suggest at first a leather strop with some compound if you do not have one. This WILL polish the scratches out, however if you dont go the strop shaving sharp IMO it wont produce desired EDGE results. This will give you a mirror polished bevel, but your edge MIGHT not be where you want it unless you can come off the stones well.

That is why i think your technique is lacking, since you SHOULD be able to produce a tree topping edge with what you have already, and you admittedly cannot.

In regards to another statement, and I dont mean to be rude, but think about GOLF. I am a 3 handicap and put alot of time into PRACTICING PROPERLY, NOT PRACTICING POOR HABITS, therefore, I break 80 nine out of ten golf outings. LOTS OF FOLKS practice alot, but cannot break 100 on the golf course. So though they PUT ALOT OF TIME IN AND DONT GET BETTER. Those are the folks that buy new drivers and irons every year, and NEVER GET BETTER. I have been using my irons for over ten years.....

Practicing POOR habits, no matter how long you practice them, is not going to help. Put some time in practicing the proper techniques, and you will get the desired results. Now that might mean going to a knifemakers/sharpeners home/business and asking them to teach you (for a fee or trade). Since you admit that putting time in "your way" is not working.

It might also mean buying a foolproof way to sharpen your knives which you believe (I dont) the WEPS system is. Freehand is just so much more satisfying for me. I sharpen knives for my friends all the time, half of them cut themselves within 5 minutes of me returning them. They have never experienced edges like this, so they dont know how to properly respect and use them. They cut themselves. Cutting yourself with a knife means YOU did something wrong, your controlling the knife.... Technique.

JC
 
Practicing knife sharpening would be groovy, were not not number 8133 on my list of things to do. I'd also like to bend my own kydex, become fluent in Koine Greek, and memorize the book of Revelation, but thats not happening either. Though I'm working on that last one. :)

If becoming a master of the stones is one's goal, thats laudable. But there is also something to be said for buying the equipment that allows one to skip the learning stage and go straight to a sick, mirrored edge that also happens to slice like a demon.

So it depends one what one's priorities are. I don't find that one approach is objectively superior to the other. It all depends on how one wants to spend one's time.
 
Jameson said:
I do not want to be rude here, as I am sure the above poster did not, but it is NOT THE EQUIPMENT.

For instance, in my case, I have a sharpmaker, DMT Diafold xfine (9 micron), leather strops in 3 micron, 1 micron, 1/2 micron.

When I come off the sharpmaker, the edge will tree top and/or whittle hair. The 9 micron DMT (which is 10+ years old and probably polishing finer than 9 microns) gets it a tiny bit better, and stropping for 2-3 minutes on each compound removes all scratches from the bevel leaving an insanely sharp/polished/smooth edge. If I want toothy edge, after stropping I run once or twice per side on the dmt xfine in a microbevel fashion. The MICRO-bevel is only the width of a couple hairs.

My largest sharpening revelation came when i realized that I want fully removing the burr, I was "flip-flopping" it over to each side.

When i learned to microbevel properly, removing all hint of a burr, that is when I experienced ULTRA sharp polished edges.

What advice I think you need with your current equipment, LIGHTER STROKES WHEN YOU ARE COMING TO THE END OF YOUR SHARPENING. When finishing my edges on stones/sharpmaker, and to a lesser degree the strop, I use feather light touch of blade to sharpening implement. This mean the burr is getting ground off, not flopped over.

I have a friend who buys a new $150-250 kitchen knife every 6 months (for about 5 years) and "lends" me his "old" knives. He does not know how to sharpen. Just the other day I made him realize his track record with knife buying, and his kitchen full of knives. Lent him my sharpmaker to get him started, and even he can put a tree topping edge on a blade. Being shown how to use the implement properly, and not use too much pressure when coming to the end of the process is why he was succesful. At first, he was just pressing too hard...

Try this before spending $300 please.
Click to expand...

Dude, thank you SO much for that post. I have a Gatco sharpening system, but I was really starting to think about buying a WickedEdge. You really made me think.

--

take care

maethor
 
Gotta weigh in here. Nobody has sung the justifiable praises of The Spyderco SharpMaker more than me. I have owned and used the SM for about 14 years and never regretted the purchase OR the results. If someone had offered me twice what I paid the ONLY reason why I would sell it is, I'd go out and buy another one and pocket the rest.
With that said, it isn't in the same league with the WEPS - not even close.
I have no disagreement with practice with the SM, lighten your strokes, don't buy a guided system IF the expenditure is an issue. ALL of the above. Can one live with a SM and without a WEPS - Absolutely.
But, the capabilities of the WEPS are many, they are varied and they far and away exceed that of the SM.
So, to the OP point. IF you don't want to buy another system and be disappointed. IF you want assurances that there is in fact "a System" out there for you that WILL afford you shaving sharp, hair topping sharp, mirror edges AND MORE. I contend the WEPS is that system. The basic system is wonderful. You can expand the system, the expansion is ongoing. It appears the company and its owner is committed to continuing that endeavor, to keep the WEPS the Premier System for the knife and knife sharpening enthusiast.

----This WAS NOT a Paid advertisement for the WEPS --------
 
Jameson said:
Then I would suggest at first a leather strop with some compound if you do not have one. This WILL polish the scratches out, however if you dont go the strop shaving sharp IMO it wont produce desired EDGE results. This will give you a mirror polished bevel, but your edge MIGHT not be where you want it unless you can come off the stones well.

That is why i think your technique is lacking, since you SHOULD be able to produce a tree topping edge with what you have already, and you admittedly cannot.

In regards to another statement, and I dont mean to be rude, but think about GOLF. I am a 3 handicap and put alot of time into PRACTICING PROPERLY, NOT PRACTICING POOR HABITS, therefore, I break 80 nine out of ten golf outings. LOTS OF FOLKS practice alot, but cannot break 100 on the golf course. So though they PUT ALOT OF TIME IN AND DONT GET BETTER. Those are the folks that buy new drivers and irons every year, and NEVER GET BETTER. I have been using my irons for over ten years.....

Practicing POOR habits, no matter how long you practice them, is not going to help. Put some time in practicing the proper techniques, and you will get the desired results. Now that might mean going to a knifemakers/sharpeners home/business and asking them to teach you (for a fee or trade). Since you admit that putting time in "your way" is not working.

It might also mean buying a foolproof way to sharpen your knives which you believe (I dont) the WEPS system is. Freehand is just so much more satisfying for me. I sharpen knives for my friends all the time, half of them cut themselves within 5 minutes of me returning them. They have never experienced edges like this, so they dont know how to properly respect and use them. They cut themselves. Cutting yourself with a knife means YOU did something wrong, your controlling the knife.... Technique.

JC
Click to expand...

Maybe I have just never experienced a knife this sharp before...but honestly I hear people say this a lot. I've never had a knife that was that easy to cut yourself with, unless you just aren't being careful. That being said, accidents happen *knock on wood*.

I'm assuming that tree topping sharp, means I can just glide the blade over hair and it will chop it all down? That I can easily slice tissue paper?

I can get a blade sharp enough to shave you bald, and sharp enough to make tiny little paper curls. I can get a blade as sharp as any blade I've ever had comes from the factory.

But it sounds like you are referencing a different level of sharp here?

-Freq
 
What I mean by sharp many people achieve here, from what I hear from descriptions. Any knife sharpened properly will "shave" from low grits to high, if the burr is removed properly, or not created really at all if you are holding perfect angles. It is arguable whether that last angles statement is true, I believe this though I cannot get my best edges this way, so I am in the create a small burr and remove it crowd. It is also highly arguable, by viewing this and other boards, the "lowest grit" you can get a "shaving sharp" edge at. I can get one at 400, but it wont shave EASILY.

Which is what I am getting at really...

I dont doubt you can get a knife shaving sharp enough to shave me bald. I think it is the "ease" of shaving that is wanting.

What I think is sharp means I can apply the blade to my arm with the side of the blade flush, and shave without even feeling the hair coming off, it is like snow. Take one of my girlfriends long hairs, and hold it up under its own weight and slice at it at an angle, the hair will slice in half lengthwise "whittled" for an inch or sometimes two inches before exciting on the opposite side. My toilet paper is soft, and therefore it wont slice well, but cheaper "HARD" TP I can slice easy as yellowbook paper. Copier paper, the stuff is a joke. If you touch the blade with your wet or moist/soft thumb, you might start bleeding without feeling it.

Again, proper progression of getting a small burr and removing it, stropping for a final finish on smooth unpolished leather, which has .05 micron ratings (.5micron green powder before polished leather step) gets me there. I cannot do it another way. I can get the edge tree topping but not whittling unless I finish on uncoated leather. The equipment I use is all over ten years old, I travel with it in an UGG boots box from a gift I gave to my GF.

Wicked edge will get you where you want to be from what I have been reading here, but I also read that many people have problems using that as well. At least at receiving the desired tree topping edge.

Barbers have been getting tree topping edges for hundreds of years and never needed a WEPS... stone to strop.. They need hair shaving (easily so it doesn't rash the customer) edges. I dont need one on all my knives such as my steak-knife set, so i finish on the 9 micron for those, gives it a little tooth but it will still shave hair, just not as easy as others...


JC
 
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Well, if you're looking to upgrade the Wicked Edge or the Edge Pro will give you what you need. Decide if you're ready to spend the money, then decide which system you want. I personally love the Edge Pro and don't like clamping systems. Some people love clamping systems and don't like the E.P.

Do some research and decide which is best for you, my personal preference is not a recommendation- both systems are capable of getting edges screaming sharp.
 
I like the versatility of the edge pro. Yes, you can screw up knives but with observation to detail and practice you will be able to handle a lot of grinds and geometries, I hesitated on buying some hawkbills and recurves that I really wanted because I thought the EP couldn't handle them without additional expense. Turns out I had no problems when I eventually decided to get those knives.

I'm sure the WEPS is a great system and I'll probably buy one at a later date when I get some extra money.
 
freq18hz said:
Maybe I have just never experienced a knife this sharp before...but honestly I hear people say this a lot. I've never had a knife that was that easy to cut yourself with, unless you just aren't being careful. That being said, accidents happen *knock on wood*.

I'm assuming that tree topping sharp, means I can just glide the blade over hair and it will chop it all down? That I can easily slice tissue paper?

I can get a blade sharp enough to shave you bald, and sharp enough to make tiny little paper curls. I can get a blade as sharp as any blade I've ever had comes from the factory.

But it sounds like you are referencing a different level of sharp here?

-Freq
Click to expand...

Honestly, I think if you are achieving this you have nothing to be disappointed with. I think some people describe their edges as accurately as they can while others are a little overly descriptive. Fact is there is some subjectivity to describing "Sharp". Sounds to me like you are getting plenty sharp with what you are doing.
 
Jameson said:
What I think is sharp means I can apply the blade to my arm with the side of the blade flush, and shave without even feeling the hair coming off, it is like snow. Take one of my girlfriends long hairs, and hold it up under its own weight and slice at it at an angle, the hair will slice in half lengthwise "whittled" for an inch or sometimes two inches before exciting on the opposite side. My toilet paper is soft, and therefore it wont slice well, but cheaper "HARD" TP I can slice easy as yellowbook paper. Copier paper, the stuff is a joke. If you touch the blade with your wet or moist/soft thumb, you might start bleeding without feeling it.
JC
Click to expand...

This is exactly the kind of sharp I am looking to achieve. I've never gotten a knife that sharp from the factory before, never sharpened a knife to be that sharp before, nor have I ever handled a knife that sharp before.

I can get my knives as sharp as they come from CRK, Strider, Spyderco etc. But as far as the kind of sharp you are referencing above, if it exists, that's what I'm looking for.

So can I still achieve that given my current two sharpening systems (sharpmaker, DMT aligner) ?

-Freq
 
In regards to the above, in my experience, no. You will need a couple pieces of good stropping leather, one smooth, two "cat's toungue like". The latter for compounds, smooth for bare stropping.

Going from the sharpmaker white stones (I have one and use it frequently depending on mood) LOVE the white ceramics (not the UF ones the normal ones with the set). I do rub the whites together the edges and the flats etc quite frequently when I am using it alot. I find this makes a finer edge. It is about 12 years old now, very smooth. No experience with the Ultrafine rods, but I am sure they are great.

Now SOMETIMES when I come off the sharpmaker whites, depending on the steel, I might do two edge trailing swipes on a Wusthof ULTRAFINE grooved steel, IF I FEEL I am not shaving as smoothly as I want. Most of the time, if it is not ATS-34 (lol), it will shave very smoothly but not tree top. After the steel swipes it will tree top, but IN MY EXPERIENCE THAT is a WIRY edge that is weak, I want to strop it away. With good eyesight and lighting (Magnification not needed) you will see which side the tiny burr is on by tilting properly in the light.

If I dont have to steel it because it is shaving smoothly I go straight to a 3 or 1 micron loaded (with Handamerican boron carbide or silicon carbide powder that I make into a paste with olive oil and apply once a year). Coming off either one of these, it will tree top. Then on to a green compound loaded one. THe knife is wiped clean with a wet towel in between each step of course so as not to contaminate. Then bare leather, and the thing is a laser. Keep in mind, if it shaves easily ONE WAY, BUT NOT THE OTHER WAY, you have a burr, it might be hard to feel (I use my fingernail), but it is there somewhere. Steel it to one side if you want, strop at it a few times and test. You can FEEL what is going on easily with a strop, especially if the leather is thin and hardwoodbacked.

You can do this with a 50 degree included angle (25 per side) on way down to a 20 degree included (10 degree per side) (as a couple of my japanese kitchen knives are) from what I have tried and get the same hair whittling edge. I do microbevel my knives that are Sub 30 degrees included (15 per side) at a couple degrees higher.

The beauty I think of what I do, is that when a knife gets dull, if I have sharpened it before (or it has shallow bevels) it is very quick and easy to get it to shaving sharp since a microbevel with a 9 micron dmt product will take all of 3 minutes to get perfect, and 5 or ten minutes on the strops TOTAL. You dont need to spend a ton of time on the strops, only a 10 swipes per side on each, the bare leather well, you can spend as much time as you like as long as your not rolling your edge.

The more you strop, the higher your risk of an imperfect stroke. Those dont ruin your entire edge as some might like you to believe, but you wouldnt want to make say 3 or 5 bad strokes in a row certainly....

I would love to hear more from some other, stitch has some good advice I am surprised he hasnt chimed in. And KNIFENUT I believe does basically exactly what I (and hundreds of others do) but with MUCH MUCH more refinement and what I think is a better result than I get. His bevels always look nice and even, me thinks he is using something guided, and if that is where it gets him God Bless!
 
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