Polished edges

[RubiconSS]

What I mean by sharp many people achieve here, from what I hear from descriptions. Any knife sharpened properly will "shave" from low grits to high, if the burr is removed properly, or not created really at all if you are holding perfect angles. It is arguable whether that last angles statement is true, I believe this though I cannot get my best edges this way, so I am in the create a small burr and remove it crowd. It is also highly arguable, by viewing this and other boards, the "lowest grit" you can get a "shaving sharp" edge at. I can get one at 400, but it wont shave EASILY.

Which is what I am getting at really...

I dont doubt you can get a knife shaving sharp enough to shave me bald. I think it is the "ease" of shaving that is wanting.

What I think is sharp means I can apply the blade to my arm with the side of the blade flush, and shave without even feeling the hair coming off, it is like snow. Take one of my girlfriends long hairs, and hold it up under its own weight and slice at it at an angle, the hair will slice in half lengthwise "whittled" for an inch or sometimes two inches before exciting on the opposite side. My toilet paper is soft, and therefore it wont slice well, but cheaper "HARD" TP I can slice easy as yellowbook paper. Copier paper, the stuff is a joke. If you touch the blade with your wet or moist/soft thumb, you might start bleeding without feeling it.

Again, proper progression of getting a small burr and removing it, stropping for a final finish on smooth unpolished leather, which has .05 micron ratings (.5micron green powder before polished leather step) gets me there. I cannot do it another way. I can get the edge tree topping but not whittling unless I finish on uncoated leather. The equipment I use is all over ten years old, I travel with it in an UGG boots box from a gift I gave to my GF.

Wicked edge will get you where you want to be from what I have been reading here, but I also read that many people have problems using that as well. At least at receiving the desired tree topping edge.

Barbers have been getting tree topping edges for hundreds of years and never needed a WEPS... stone to strop.. They need hair shaving (easily so it doesn't rash the customer) edges. I dont need one on all my knives such as my steak-knife set, so i finish on the 9 micron for those, gives it a little tooth but it will still shave hair, just not as easy as others...


JC

I will confess guilty as charged. When I got the WEPS I probably took a dumb pill. Well made, well designed - thing will just sharpen knives like Santa eats cookies - Lay them out and when you get up in the morning ALL DONE!
No. Read the Book. Watch the videos. Listen to the guys that have used it and ALL is well.
I made the fateful mistake - Raise the BURR Forest, raise the B U R Rrrrrrrrrr.
Now, I have not talked my Wife into letting me part her hair like a modern day knife wielding Moses nor have I shaved my body to Olympic Swimmer smoothness while feeling the touch of snow BUT I have gotten bloody and as with many of my former "Hobbies" drawing blood is a good sign of success.
So. Sharp is almost bordering on a philosophical discussion (another old hobby) but I will resist the temptation.

 

[freq18hz]

Currently I have no stropping equipment.

All I have is a sharpmaker, an the DMT aligner.

I can successfully sharpen by alternating, or by raising a burr on one side, and then removing it with a single stroke on the opposite.

I don't have anyone to show me how to do this stuff. I'm relying on the wisdom of you wonderful folks to steer me towards a better and prettier sharp.

I am all ears (and eyes).


-Freq

 

[RubiconSS]

Currently I have no stropping equipment.

All I have is a sharpmaker, an the DMT aligner.

I can successfully sharpen by alternating, or by raising a burr on one side, and then removing it with a single stroke on the opposite.

I don't have anyone to show me how to do this stuff. I'm relying on the wisdom of you wonderful folks to steer me towards a better and prettier sharp.

I am all ears (and eyes).


-Freq

That's what V. VanGogh said when he first posted here.

 

[singularity35]

Currently I have no stropping equipment.

All I have is a sharpmaker, an the DMT aligner.

I can successfully sharpen by alternating, or by raising a burr on one side, and then removing it with a single stroke on the opposite.

I don't have anyone to show me how to do this stuff. I'm relying on the wisdom of you wonderful folks to steer me towards a better and prettier sharp.

I am all ears (and eyes).


-Freq

I have tried the cheap way to strops and stropping(some leather on wood loaded with green compound). I find that I like the results that stropping gives so I'm almost ready to go the DMT paste way(expensive). I do hope the results will justify the cost difference from plain green compound.

 

[stitchawl]

I have tried the cheap way to strops and stropping(some leather on wood loaded with green compound). I find that I like the results that stropping gives so I'm almost ready to go the DMT paste way(expensive). I do hope the results will justify the cost difference from plain green compound.

I think you'll find the diamond pastes 'faster,' not necessarily 'better.' And you can get the diamond compound down to .25 mics while green Chromium Oxide will only get rated down to .5 mics. As to justifying the cost difference, if you are doing production sharpening it will. When you have to sharpen a dozen knives every day, the time saved will be important. Or, if you just appreciate the faster action, though in fact, you shouldn't be needing to spend more than a minute or two with a strop anyway. If you do need to spend more time than that, you should be staying on your stone longer.

If you want 'sharper,' finish with a good quality bare horsehide strop. That can take your edge down to .05 mics and if you get the REALLY good leather, .01 micron.


Stitchawl

 

[Jameson]

Get some decent leather, build yourself a decent strop with glue and a flat piece of hardwood. Then buy your DMT pastes.

I bought a sharpmaker 204 & HandAmerican pc10 strop in 1998, one piece of rough leather on hardwood with a hinge, and the smooth on top of another piece of hardwood. This included 4 compounds, which I still have 95% of. Since then the only sharpening stuff I have bought were a rough/medium arkansas stone which I use for grinding chips from blades, was given a VERY ROUGH (guess at 200 grit) diamond honing rod which I use like a benchstone for stock removal laid flat on a table, and purchased a DMT xfine green diafold. These items, whether used by themselves (except for the strop) or in a progression from rough to fine, give me a shaving edge. When I come off the stone or diamond rod I can shave, Coming off teh xfine it shaves easier then... Stropping is the final blow.

You can do it lots of ways, but this way I am certain my burr is gone, and the results dont lie.

Of course, your mileage may vary depending on your technique (I learned from the internet too!), but if you have a rough stone, and something close to 1000k grit, if you cant get it shaving sharp, the knife steel is bad, or your technique is bad.

Again, I think if people took an hour or so, and ACTUALLY READ ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO DO SCIENTIFICALLY they would figure it out. But what I see MOSTLY ON THE FORUMS consists of people practicing poor habits and thinking MONEY will buy them out of it.

Again the Golf Analogy, if you cant break 100, why do you think it is your driver? If your swing is bad, HOW ARE NEW CLUBS GOING TO HELP?

Again, cool gadget, learning the "proper" way will satisfy more...

See knifenuts post, and the persons "paper" on the various knife tests he did (voorhaus?)

JC

 

[singularity35]

I think you'll find the diamond pastes 'faster,' not necessarily 'better.' And you can get the diamond compound down to .25 mics while green Chromium Oxide will only get rated down to .5 mics. As to justifying the cost difference, if you are doing production sharpening it will. When you have to sharpen a dozen knives every day, the time saved will be important. Or, if you just appreciate the faster action, though in fact, you shouldn't be needing to spend more than a minute or two with a strop anyway. If you do need to spend more time than that, you should be staying on your stone longer.

If you want 'sharper,' finish with a good quality bare horsehide strop. That can take your edge down to .05 mics and if you get the REALLY good leather, .01 micron.


Stitchawl

Thanks, it's actually the water shedding, mirror polished edges that I'm wanting to have. The almost black looking mirror edges that I see some of you getting. With the tools I have now(edge pro up to 3k tape and chrome oxide) I can get a pretty good mirror, TP slicing, hair whittling sharpness but being drawn to the dark side, I always want more.

 

[freq18hz]

That's what V. VanGogh said when he first posted here.

hahahah!


-Freq

 

[cziv]

Thanks, it's actually the water shedding, mirror polished edges that I'm wanting to have. The almost black looking mirror edges that I see some of you getting. With the tools I have now(edge pro up to 3k tape and chrome oxide) I can get a pretty good mirror, TP slicing, hair whittling sharpness but being drawn to the dark side, I always want more.

I agree with Knifenut, that it's not the tool. I can produce (finally) a pretty fair mirror edge. I have a DMT Magna-guide and every dia-fold. By the time you come off the xx-fine, you're at nearly mirror already.

I posted a problem I was having with my XM-18 and getting it to about 99% mirror with some little scribbles or cloudy spots here and there.

I went back over it again and paid attention to staying light on my strokes, removing the previous scratch pattern with each stone and man that edge was popping. I stropped lightly with the 6, 3, 1 diapaste on balsa and had my first real mirror going on.

It's definitely mostly about technique and some about matching your hones to the kind of steel you're going to be working on.

What I'm leading up to is that I didn't like the way my XM-18 cut with a mirror edge if you can believe that. I went back and used fine, x-fine and xx-fine by hand to finish them and only did a couple of passes on the strop, 6 in all actually, to be sure the edge was aligned very nicely.

The CTS-XHP and Duratech 20CV on the XM-18 really cuts better IMHO with a little bit of a scratch pattern on them. They seemed to bite better when whittling a bunch of twigs & small branches in the yard and they're still semi-mirror, as in - you'd have to look closely to see that they've got some scratch on the edge.

It's really been fun learning to sharpen with YMMV

 

[stitchawl]

Thanks, it's actually the water shedding, mirror polished edges that I'm wanting to have. The almost black looking mirror edges that I see some of you getting. With the tools I have now(edge pro up to 3k tape and chrome oxide) I can get a pretty good mirror, TP slicing, hair whittling sharpness but being drawn to the dark side, I always want more.

Just keep in mind... Chromium Oxide only rates down to .5 micron. Horse hide is 10X finer... or more!
If you want edges that shave without pulling, do what the professional shavers do to finish their edges. The results speak for themselves. :thumbup:


Stitchawl

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

Thanks, it's actually the water shedding, mirror polished edges that I'm wanting to have. The almost black looking mirror edges that I see some of you getting. With the tools I have now(edge pro up to 3k tape and chrome oxide) I can get a pretty good mirror, TP slicing, hair whittling sharpness but being drawn to the dark side, I always want more.

Go straight from the 2k to the 6k tapes, then strop. You'll get a mirror that you didn't know was possible. :thumbup:

 

[singularity35]

Just keep in mind... Chromium Oxide only rates down to .5 micron. Horse hide is 10X finer... or more!
If you want edges that shave without pulling, do what the professional shavers do to finish their edges. The results speak for themselves. :thumbup:


Stitchawl

Getting some horsebutt leather is something I will eventually do. Thanks.

Go straight from the 2k to the 6k tapes, then strop. You'll get a mirror that you didn't know was possible. :thumbup:

For the moment, this is the less expensive option, so I guess I'll try this first. Thanks for the tip.

 

[freq18hz]

I agree with Knifenut, that it's not the tool. I can produce (finally) a pretty fair mirror edge. I have a DMT Magna-guide and every dia-fold. By the time you come off the xx-fine, you're at nearly mirror already.

I posted a problem I was having with my XM-18 and getting it to about 99% mirror with some little scribbles or cloudy spots here and there.

I went back over it again and paid attention to staying light on my strokes, removing the previous scratch pattern with each stone and man that edge was popping. I stropped lightly with the 6, 3, 1 diapaste on balsa and had my first real mirror going on.

It's definitely mostly about technique and some about matching your hones to the kind of steel you're going to be working on.

What I'm leading up to is that I didn't like the way my XM-18 cut with a mirror edge if you can believe that. I went back and used fine, x-fine and xx-fine by hand to finish them and only did a couple of passes on the strop, 6 in all actually, to be sure the edge was aligned very nicely.

The CTS-XHP and Duratech 20CV on the XM-18 really cuts better IMHO with a little bit of a scratch pattern on them. They seemed to bite better when whittling a bunch of twigs & small branches in the yard and they're still semi-mirror, as in - you'd have to look closely to see that they've got some scratch on the edge.

It's really been fun learning to sharpen with YMMV

So how long does the whole process take you? I've got extra fine stone for my DMT aligner, and the edge looks anything but polished when I'm done.

In fact, I used my sebenza to cut on a ceramic plate some months ago, and I've never been able to re-work the belly so that it doesn't catch on paper.

I'm sure technique has a large part to play in this. But after watching the wicked edge vids, it looked like it would be easier to have great technique with that thing than freehanding it, or using this DMT aligner, which BTW I find to be a huge piece of crap.

-Freq

 

[cziv]

So how long does the whole process take you? I've got extra fine stone for my DMT aligner, and the edge looks anything but polished when I'm done.

In fact, I used my sebenza to cut on a ceramic plate some months ago, and I've never been able to re-work the belly so that it doesn't catch on paper.

I'm sure technique has a large part to play in this. But after watching the wicked edge vids, it looked like it would be easier to have great technique with that thing than freehanding it, or using this DMT aligner, which BTW I find to be a huge piece of crap.

-Freq

Preach it brotha - speak your mind! I'm sure you're gonna be happy if you get a WE sharpener. Prollyy make us all blush after you get the hang of it!

 

[freq18hz]

Preach it brotha - speak your mind! I'm sure you're gonna be happy if you get a WE sharpener. Prollyy make us all blush after you get the hang of it!

I didn't mean it like that at all, really sorry if I came across that way.

I just don't like a few things about the aligner...it doesn't really hold a constant angle at all due to slop with the guide rod.


I wasn't suggesting that I would ever make anyone around blush, especially when it comes to sharpening. I do not think I am knowledgable in the slightest, especially in comparison to all you highly intelligent and awesome dudes!

I'm willing to take any tips whatsoever to improve. Was just listing my experience.


-Freq

 

[cziv]

I just chuckled when I read your post this morning freq18hz, since I know the frustrations too. The aligner and the magna-guide are pretty much the same thing but I don't think I'd like the clamp with just stones and no handle as in the dia-fold set-up. I think I've got the hang of the guided part and the freehand too.

The handle makes all of the difference. For freehand, the way I do it is to lay the edge back until I can see that it's not hitting the stone and then start rotating the knife up until they match and then stroke forward. Works good for me but it's taken a long time to figure it out - about a year now. I'm getting great results with the aligner (limited angle selections) and the dia-fold itself going free-hand.

I thought maybe you were going to buy the wicked edge. I was thinking about it but thought - "I could buy a Sebenza with that money. I'll stick to my dia-folds and sharpmaker!"

 

[freq18hz]

I just chuckled when I read your post this morning freq18hz, since I know the frustrations too. The aligner and the magna-guide are pretty much the same thing but I don't think I'd like the clamp with just stones and no handle as in the dia-fold set-up. I think I've got the hang of the guided part and the freehand too.

The handle makes all of the difference. For freehand, the way I do it is to lay the edge back until I can see that it's not hitting the stone and then start rotating the knife up until they match and then stroke forward. Works good for me but it's taken a long time to figure it out - about a year now. I'm getting great results with the aligner (limited angle selections) and the dia-fold itself going free-hand.

I thought maybe you were going to buy the wicked edge. I was thinking about it but thought - "I could buy a Sebenza with that money. I'll stick to my dia-folds and sharpmaker!"

Well for me, the aligner clamp, the part that the rod fits into, it moves up and down slightly, so it's impossible to get a consistent angle unless you kind of pull up on the spine of the blade, therefore pushing the edge down. This is why I say I dislike it. I'm sure I'd get even better results if I didn't have this amount of movement/angle change.

Also I really hate flipping the blade over while clamped. Freehand it isn't as big of a deal, and in the case of freehand I tend to create a burr on one side, and then remove it with 1 light pass on the other. Then repeat.

But I think it would be better for me and my edges perhaps to be doing even strokes, once on each side?

Again, my whole problem is that I can get edges as sharp as most factory edges, but they aren't as pretty, or consistent. Like I said, the belly/tip of my Sebenza got screwed up on a ceramic plate months ago, and no sharpening that I seem to be able to muster up, even if I take a lot of metal off, seems to fix the problem.

I hate this whole internet thing. Almost everyone on here is a cool, stand up guy. It's too bad there can't just be a sharpening get together with some beers. I'd bring the cigars.

Thanks so much to everyone who has commented/provided tips. I appreciate it!

-Freq

 

[cziv]

Well for me, the aligner clamp, the part that the rod fits into, it moves up and down slightly, so it's impossible to get a consistent angle unless you kind of pull up on the spine of the blade, therefore pushing the edge down. This is why I say I dislike it. I'm sure I'd get even better results if I didn't have this amount of movement/angle change.

Also I really hate flipping the blade over while clamped. Freehand it isn't as big of a deal, and in the case of freehand I tend to create a burr on one side, and then remove it with 1 light pass on the other. Then repeat.

But I think it would be better for me and my edges perhaps to be doing even strokes, once on each side?

Again, my whole problem is that I can get edges as sharp as most factory edges, but they aren't as pretty, or consistent. Like I said, the belly/tip of my Sebenza got screwed up on a ceramic plate months ago, and no sharpening that I seem to be able to muster up, even if I take a lot of metal off, seems to fix the problem.

I hate this whole internet thing. Almost everyone on here is a cool, stand up guy. It's too bad there can't just be a sharpening get together with some beers. I'd bring the cigars.

Thanks so much to everyone who has commented/provided tips. I appreciate it!

-Freq

First, let me say I'm sorry to hear you screwed up your Sebenza. I'd send it in to CRK for a resharpening. They may not have to replace the blade - like Benchmade had to do, when I screwed up a brand new 940 a couple of years ago when I tried to re-profile it and scratched it to h*ll and back. Lucky it was only $25 plus shipping.

My clamp the Magna-guide and magnetic rod for the dia-folds (not sure if it's the same as on the aligner) is like a rock. When it locks on to the blade nothing's going anywhere.

If you're getting your knives really sharp, then two things may be happening (that I can think of).

1. You have to do more strokes with lighter pressure when you move to the next finer grit hone, so that the scratch pattern looks entirely finer than the last one. Move finer do almost double the work using lighter pressure and so on.

2. You should have a near mirror edge when coming off the xx-fine DMT hone. The rest is just a matter of stropping with the dia-pastes and not getting carried away. Lots of feather light passes or I dull my blade!

3. After I got my first mirror like edge which was just a few days ago. What do you think I did? I put it back on the fine, x-fine, and xx-fine hones again and roughed it up a little bit freehand as I posted above because my knife just cuts better with a little (and I do mean a little bit) toothiness left on the edge. I only did 6 passes on 6, 3, and 1 micron dia-pasted balsa blocks to insure that I didn't have any burr.

At arm's length it flashes like a mirror but it's not it's all scribbly looking with a small scratch pattern and I'm keeping them that way. I was cutting those little gas station pump receipts into slivers with the knife (an XM-18) and it slices copy paper lengthwise in a single sweep.

I got my Spyderco Military almost that sharp just using the gray & white rods the other day at 40* inclusive. Scary sharp. I haven't bought the ultrafines because I love my diafolds too much to spend the money when I don't need to. I just wanted a micro-bevel on my Military - if it came new with a smaller inclusive edge. I don't know that it did but it's slicing real nice at 40* and a few passes on the 3 strops.

So how long does the whole process take you?

BTW, it took me about 3.5 hours to get a really dulled XM-18 razor sharp again. I took a break between each stone and lots of nagnifying glas and sharpie breaks to0, just so I could keep an eye on progress. And, you really need to get the xx-fine hone to finish on IMHO.

 

[freq18hz]

First, let me say I'm sorry to hear you screwed up your Sebenza. I'd send it in to CRK for a resharpening. They may not have to replace the blade - like Benchmade had to do, when I screwed up a brand new 940 a couple of years ago when I tried to re-profile it and scratched it to h*ll and back. Lucky it was only $25 plus shipping.

My clamp the Magna-guide and magnetic rod for the dia-folds (not sure if it's the same as on the aligner) is like a rock. When it locks on to the blade nothing's going anywhere.

If you're getting your knives really sharp, then two things may be happening (that I can think of).

1. You have to do more strokes with lighter pressure when you move to the next finer grit hone, so that the scratch pattern looks entirely finer than the last one. Move finer do almost double the work using lighter pressure and so on.

2. You should have a near mirror edge when coming off the xx-fine DMT hone. The rest is just a matter of stropping with the dia-pastes and not getting carried away. Lots of feather light passes or I dull my blade!

3. After I got my first mirror like edge which was just a few days ago. What do you think I did? I put it back on the fine, x-fine, and xx-fine hones again and roughed it up a little bit freehand as I posted above because my knife just cuts better with a little (and I do mean a little bit) toothiness left on the edge. I only did 6 passes on 6, 3, and 1 micron dia-pasted balsa blocks to insure that I didn't have any burr.

At arm's length it flashes like a mirror but it's not it's all scribbly looking with a small scratch pattern and I'm keeping them that way. I was cutting those little gas station pump receipts into slivers with the knife (an XM-18) and it slices copy paper lengthwise in a single sweep.

I got my Spyderco Military almost that sharp just using the gray & white rods the other day at 40* inclusive. Scary sharp. I haven't bought the ultrafines because I love my diafolds too much to spend the money when I don't need to. I just wanted a micro-bevel on my Military - if it came new with a smaller inclusive edge. I don't know that it did but it's slicing real nice at 40* and a few passes on the 3 strops.



BTW, it took me about 3.5 hours to get a really dulled XM-18 razor sharp again. I took a break between each stone and lots of nagnifying glas and sharpie breaks to0, just so I could keep an eye on progress. And, you really need to get the xx-fine hone to finish on IMHO.

You know the magnifying glass thing isn't a bad idea. I really can't see the edge at all.

Also...the problem isn't so much that the blade slips out of the clamp, its that the whole clamp assembly can move up and down on the guide rod. Basically the hole in the clamp that the rod fits into, has quite a bit of room which causes play. Once the knife is clamped and you insert the rod, you can still get the angle to change by pulling up/pressing down on the clamped knife. It sucks.


-Freq

 

[cziv]

You know the magnifying glass thing isn't a bad idea. I really can't see the edge at all.

Also...the problem isn't so much that the blade slips out of the clamp, its that the whole clamp assembly can move up and down on the guide rod. Basically the hole in the clamp that the rod fits into, has quite a bit of room which causes play. Once the knife is clamped and you insert the rod, you can still get the angle to change by pulling up/pressing down on the clamped knife. It sucks.


-Freq

I hold the handle of the knife and always make sure that I press the alignment bar down lightly to get rid of the hone hopping from the top to the bottom of the guide's hole. I've never used an aligner. Maybe you could hone and keep a finger on the rod to keep it at the bottom of that hole up top?

Yep, that would sure wreak havoc on your edge with the bar flopping from top to bottom of the setting loop at the clamp. A magna-guide with long dia-fold handles and a strong magnet which sticks to the hone really hard, allows you to lever (becomes 2nd nature) the guide rod in the down position while you're working.

It's very hard to put in words, but I wouldn't give up on it, I've seen some nice edges posted with a DMT Aligner set. :thumbup: