Poltova vs Venev

ncrockclimb

ncrockclimb

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I have seen a great deal of discussion about the Poltova stones. I currently use Venev Scorpion stones. From my perspective, they look to be very similar to Poltova. The reviews I see online comparing Venev and Poltova are all over the place.

What are your thoughts? Are Poltova a significant step up?

I am considering buying a few Poltova stones, but if they are not that much different than Venev, I will probably just stick with what I have.

Any input you have would be greatly appreciate.
 
I was under the impression that the Venev stones were pretty much top tier. Difficult to imagine them not being sufficient regardless of what new and improved warez begin to circulate.
 
ncrockclimb said:
I have seen a great deal of discussion about the Poltova stones. I currently use Venev Scorpion stones. From my perspective, they look to be very similar to Poltova. The reviews I see online comparing Venev and Poltova are all over the place.

What are your thoughts? Are Poltova a significant step up?

I am considering buying a few Poltova stones, but if they are not that much different than Venev, I will probably just stick with what I have.

Any input you have would be greatly appreciate.
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Both Venev and Poltava have recently been experimenting with so many different bonds, that it's hard to keep up with what is available and preferred. As far as performance goes, that would depend on what your personal preference is.

Poltava does have some resin bonded stones, which compare quite well to the Venev resin bonded stones (like your Scorpion set). On the flip side, Venev also has a lot of new metallic bonded stones to compete with Poltava in that field.

In the end, there will always be some who prefer one bond to another, but the performance and quality you have in your Venev Scorpion stones are hard to beat.

If you prefer faster steel removal at the low grit stages, then I would recommend getting some low to medium grit diamond plated stones to complement and set you up for your Venev Scorpion set, rather than completely changing over to Poltava at the price point.
 
For info, here is a current list of Venev bonds that I could find:

OSB - Proprietary composite resin with no abrasive.

MS-1 - Copper-tin alloy with silicon carbide (smaller than the diamonds/cbn).

MS-1A - Copper-tin-aluminum alloy with silicon carbide (smaller than the diamonds/cbn).

MS-1A300 - Experimental variation of MS-1A.

M2-01 - Copper-tin alloy.

MB-1 - Copper-tin alloy with boron carbide.

B1-10 - Resin made of powdered bakelite with boron carbide and copper.

B2-01 - Resin made of liquid bakelite with boron carbide and iron.

В2-01М - Softer version of B2-01.
 
777 Edge said:
For info, here is a current list of Venev bonds that I could find:

OSB - Proprietary composite resin with no abrasive.

MS-1 - Copper-tin alloy with silicon carbide (smaller than the diamonds/cbn).

MS-1A - Copper-tin-aluminum alloy with silicon carbide (smaller than the diamonds/cbn).

MS-1A300 - Experimental variation of MS-1A.

M2-01 - Copper-tin alloy.

MB-1 - Copper-tin alloy with boron carbide.

B1-10 - Resin made of powdered bakelite with boron carbide and copper.

B2-01 - Resin made of liquid bakelite with boron carbide and iron.

В2-01М - Softer version of B2-01.
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wow. I had no idea that Venev had so many options. Thank you for all the info.
 
777 Edge said:
For info, here is a current list of Venev bonds that I could find:
Click to expand...
All listed bonds (except OSB) are standard bonds for powered tools. They are used by Poltava too in diamond wheels.
Venev removed SiC powders from B2-01 and named this bond OSB. The cost of bond has become lower and people stopped complaining about parasite particles in bond. But they did not manage to maintain bond hardness for each grain size. Also they are unable to make stones with 30000grit= 0.5/0 micron powders.
Metal bonds by Poltava and Venev should be identical (generic M2-01), but Poltava makes stones in range F30000-F50, while Venev F25000-F80. No this is not about demand, this is about technical ability to distribute powder in bronze alloy.
Frankly speaking, I do not like games with bonds. People create product lines pretending they are innovative and effective. This is stupid.
There should be different bonds, but depending on grain size: harder for coarse grits and softer for fine grit.
So there are 2 product lines:
- combined bond sharpening stones with bonds depending on grain size
- metal bond - with much longer tooling life
optimal selection in this case is 2 metal bond stones coarse grits and 4-5 combined bond stones
there's table comparing various stones at the bottom of the page.
 
abrasivetools said:
Also they are unable to make stones with 30000grit= 0.5/0 micron powders.
Metal bonds by Poltava and Venev should be identical (generic M2-01), but Poltava makes stones in range F30000-F50, while Venev F25000-F80.
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Good information.

Do you mean J30,000? There is no F30,000 grit category.
 
I've been using DMT Duosharp (nice big 10x4 :)) for 50 yrs on our knives, strictly non-professionally. Red/grn for me and a blu/grn when friends bring a really dull knife and ask me to sharpen. Whips them into shape real quick. I sharpen mine 2 or 3 times a year. Haven't warn out (a paring knife is getting close now) a knife or stone yet. I maintain edge with F Dick steel. In the kitchen we have German cook's knives exclusively, Heckels and Trident/Wustof. Almost forgot a few butcher's knives in the pantry on a magnetic rack.

Late last week I ordered Venev 240-400 and 800-1200 dragons, just to try them, see what the fuss is, and have them. Resin bonded diamond bench stones seem like the present "best" consensus among youtube knife sharpeners. What first attracted me to DMT is synthetic/monocrystalline (perfect single crystal, never chip) vs. natural diamonds (with natural inclusions/crystal defects "polycrystalline," continually chipping exposing fresh faces). Neither dull, diamond is much too hard for that.

Venev are clearly advertised being synthetic diamonds, seem to make bench stones and some small equivelent for manual guided sharpening systems. That's all. Russian like Shiro. Poltova bench stones seemingly are identical, iso 9001. Make no mention of synthetic, poly/natural diamonds except in only one remote location on their comparatively extensive website where they mention being Ukraine's or Eastern Europe's first synthetic diamond manufacturer. They make all manner of industrial diamond implements. Ukraine has been attempting to gain NATO membership for a while, so there's that politic. I think it's a pick-em between V vs P.

Unless you often use an abrasive to "flatten/deglaze/clean" the surface they should last forever. Resin is a relatively soft plastic that an abrasive will readily remove, along with the diamond held therein. My instinct will-be to let the resin play out, just a mm or two thick to start so it isn't ever getting very far from absolutely flat for kitchen and pocket knife sharpening purposes. (Machinists use, purpose and expenses do vary dramatically. So would I imagine a professional sharpener's.) Just rinse under a stream of water and dab dry with clean kitchen towel after use, dish soap once in a while if it looks dirty. Its lifetime could be one which should reach your grandchild's kid someday.

The great thing about diamond is it sharpens much faster than natural stone, lasts forever with reasonable use (don't press down with all your might) and they stay flat, besides working on all steels.
 
ColdDesert said:
I've been using DMT Duosharp (nice big 10x4 :)) for 50 yrs on our knives, strictly non-professionally. Red/grn for me and a blu/grn when friends bring a really dull knife and ask me to sharpen. Whips them into shape real quick. I sharpen mine 2 or 3 times a year. Haven't warn out (a paring knife is getting close now) a knife or stone yet. I maintain edge with F Dick steel. In the kitchen we have German cook's knives exclusively, Heckels and Trident/Wustof. Almost forgot a few butcher's knives in the pantry on a magnetic rack.

Late last week I ordered Venev 240-400 and 800-1200 dragons, just to try them, see what the fuss is, and have them. Resin bonded diamond bench stones seem like the present "best" consensus among youtube knife sharpeners. What first attracted me to DMT is synthetic/monocrystalline (perfect single crystal, never chip) vs. natural diamonds (with natural inclusions/crystal defects "polycrystalline," continually chipping exposing fresh faces). Neither dull, diamond is much too hard for that.

Venev are clearly advertised being synthetic diamonds, seem to make bench stones and some small equivelent for manual guided sharpening systems. That's all. Russian like Shiro. Poltova bench stones seemingly are identical, iso 9001. Make no mention of synthetic, poly/natural diamonds except in only one remote location on their comparatively extensive website where they mention being Ukraine's or Eastern Europe's first synthetic diamond manufacturer. They make all manner of industrial diamond implements. Ukraine has been attempting to gain NATO membership for a while, so there's that politic. I think it's a pick-em between V vs P.

Unless you often use an abrasive to "flatten/deglaze/clean" the surface they should last forever. Resin is a relatively soft plastic that an abrasive will readily remove, along with the diamond held therein. My instinct will-be to let the resin play out, just a mm or two thick to start so it isn't ever getting very far from absolutely flat for kitchen and pocket knife sharpening purposes. (Machinists use, purpose and expenses do vary dramatically. So would I imagine a professional sharpener's.) Just rinse under a stream of water and dab dry with clean kitchen towel after use, dish soap once in a while if it looks dirty. Its lifetime could be one which should reach your grandchild's kid someday.

The great thing about diamond is it sharpens much faster than natural stone, lasts forever with reasonable use (don't press down with all your might) and they stay flat, besides working on all steels.
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Poltava and Venev were established by Soviets. Poltava was planned as one of the biggest synthetic diamond manufacturers in the world. Venev- small local manufacturer of some tools. There was single design and science centers for all factories (3 in Ukraine and 4 in russia) - Institute of superhard materials, Kyiv and Moscow diamond institute. Poltava has all research and tech materials, because they made full product line incl. synthetic diamond powders. Venev - only generic recipes, like bond B2-01, which they called OSB, when removed SiC powders.

Poltava diamond plant, E6 ( De Beers industrial diamond) and DIamond innovations (GE superabasives) were the biggest world synth diamond manufacturers, until Chinese entered market with cheap and abundant material. Now 2 of them (except DI) try to dominate own market niches. Venev just makes stones, because their wheels are not competitive. Poltava had 70% of russian market until the war.

Also sourcing is important. The more you make- the more you buy feedstock - the higher is your value as buyer, Poltava's value is much higher than Venev's, so they buy better material.

I work in this field since 2003
 
abrasivetools said:
Poltava and Venev were established by Soviets. Poltava was planned as one of the biggest synthetic diamond manufacturers in the world. Venev- small local manufacturer of some tools. There was single design and science centers for all factories (3 in Ukraine and 4 in russia) - Institute of superhard materials, Kyiv and Moscow diamond institute. Poltava has all research and tech materials, because they made full product line incl. synthetic diamond powders. Venev - only generic recipes, like bond B2-01, which they called OSB, when removed SiC powders.

Poltava diamond plant, E6 ( De Beers industrial diamond) and DIamond innovations (GE superabasives) were the biggest world synth diamond manufacturers, until Chinese entered market with cheap and abundant material. Now 2 of them (except DI) try to dominate own market niches. Venev just makes stones, because their wheels are not competitive. Poltava had 70% of russian market until the war.

Also sourcing is important. The more you make- the more you buy feedstock - the higher is your value as buyer, Poltava's value is much higher than Venev's, so they buy better material.

I work in this field since 2003
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A abrasivetools : Who makes TSProf Alpha, Hapstone Premium and TSProf & Hapstone diamond + CBN plated stones? Poltava or Venev?
 
777 Edge said:
A abrasivetools : Who makes TSProf Alpha, Hapstone Premium and TSProf & Hapstone diamond + CBN plated stones? Poltava or Venev?
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"Tech studio profile" from russia. TSProof Alfa - volcanic bond, which they call rubber bond; usually this bond is not used for superabrasives (diamond, cbn), but for abrasives like electrocorundum. Price of el.cor stone is about 15usd.
The bond works well on roughing and grinding and could be compared to vitrified one, but it's softer: move of stone across blade is smoother.
Venev does not list this bond and I suppose these stones are made by one of abrasive makers: Luga, Belgorod, dozens of them. And no need to develop new recipe.

Hapstone is Ukrainian company. There are 2 manufacturers in Poltava: PDTools and Poltava plant of diamond tools. Both of them make high quality tools, and all trade mark owners deal with them, including me. We do not deal with russia.

​

 
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777 Edge said:
Thanks A abrasivetools , what about diamond plates? From experimentation and microscope images it seems that almost all plated diamond stones are now Chinese made.
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About so called electroplated sharpening "stones"
This is cheap product for roughing, with low tooling life
I see its application in manicure.
And UA manufacturers do not make such products for polishing/finishing.

Although plate from single crystal looks interesting, as well as expensive. Made by E6 in SA.

About diamond powders, which is more interesting.
Diamond synthesis is Europe and russia is stopped indefinitely because of higher costs. E6 in Shannon, Ireland was the last on EU, and Poltava synthesis was the last on the whole continent.
E6 has synthesis in Springs, SA, some powders are purchased by Poltava for premium products, like drilling bits.
Now 99% powders are from China. Applicability depends on synthesis profile and sieving (wide or low grain size distribution). Demanding clients from Germany (W**dt) or Japan (As**i) require synthesis profiles which produce diamonds with specific qualities(self sharpening, low strength) . The difference between these powders and usual product is visible on microscope: they are darker (ideally green, not yellow) and of irregular shape. I suppose of all Chinese diamonds, these are about 5-10%.
I know, PDTools purchased special powders from Ru***o superabrasives, but do not know current supplier, because I buy only their metal bond stones (Premium) and for metal bond high or low strength diamond is not really such important.
I do not buy PDTools resin bond stones (Expert), because resin bond is a legacy product. So no need to find out supplier of powders.
For combined bond stones (metal-resin) by another Poltava factory, we deal with UA company, which works for E6, and also purchases special powders.

Apparently, russians also source from China, whatever they state in descriptions. Their synthesis was stopped ~5 years before stopping in Poltava,
 
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777 Edge said:
A abrasivetools , Do you have any thoughts or information regarding the Venev MS-1 A300 bonds specifically?
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MS-1 is old good M2-01 with SiC powders
Sharpeners I know see no difference between MS-1 and M2-01
probably it should be on fine grain sizes (below 3 micron): finer SiC may polish parasite scratches by diamonds.
but Venev does not make such stones and there are no such SiC powders, the finest is 3 micron ;)
 
abrasivetools said:
MS-1 is old good M2-01 with SiC powders
Sharpeners I know see no difference between MS-1 and M2-01
probably it should be on fine grain sizes (below 3 micron): finer SiC may polish parasite scratches by diamonds.
but Venev does not make such stones and there are no such SiC powders, the finest is 3 micron ;)
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Yes, correct but they also now have a MS-1 "A-300" bond also in some lower grit stones. My question is specifically about if you have information about the "A-300" composition?
 
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