Possible Irrational Rant Alert (GONE POLL)

[Rick Marchand]

No matter how much I try to convince myself that it doesn't matter... it makes my stomach churn... so it must matter to me on a deeper level.

When a custom knifemaker's challenge is concerned, should there be a distinction between makers who do their own heat treating and those who farm it out? I really battle with this concept everytime I enter a challenge. I am not trying to be a sole authorship snob or saying that only "real knifemakers" do their own heat treat. How far do you take it in either direction?

In a contest of a maker's skill, should there be lines drawn as to what the mandatory requirements from the maker are?

Smelting
Shaping
Heat treating
Finishing
Mounting
Sharpening
Sheathing

Which of the above are acceptable to outsource when it comes to a Maker's Challenge? I think it really depends on the parameters of the challenge, itself but rarely are these parameters discussed in-depth.

I felt that bit was poll worthy.

I personally feel that heat treating is a vital part of knifemaking which puts me in agreement with those, who aren't set up properly, farming out heat treating to professionals. At the same time, I can't help but see it as the breaking of a crucial "link" in the skill set of a knifemaker, particularily in the case of a custom performance challenge. The hard pill to swallow is that it can be taken one step back to smelting and refining your own steel... which in my opinion, is THE MOST CRUCIAL ASPECT OF KNIFEMAKING but one that has become understandably commonplace/practical to outsource. I had the opportunity participate in the smelting process, ONCE and am VERY happy buying steel from reputable suppliers, thank you.

If in-house heat treating has become somewhat dispensable to the custom maker, will we eventually be okay with outsourcing grinding, as well?

Answer the poll and leave your thoughts.

Rick

 

[Big Chris]

I personally hate sheathing a knife. I do not mind kydex at all, but despise leather work. I am very proud of the fact though that I am able to heat treat my own blades. Like you said, this is where the heart and soul comes in to a knife and it's success or failure is all in my own hands. I heat treated my challenge blades last week and had some warpage issues. I broke one in the straightening, but the other came out well and I have pride in the fact I was able to accomplish this "feat" of straightening on my own. I will still send out blades that are too big for my oven but that is about all. I rather enjoy all the grinding and shaping and making a bar of steel turn into a knife.

 

[AVigil]

Bob Loveless

That's all I am saying

 

[Rick Marchand]

Bob Loveless

That's all I am saying

I don't get it, Adam? I know Bob outsourced his heat treat. What is the point? The arguement isn't whether or not a true knifemaker does his own heat treatment. It is on the ethics of a Maker's Challange and whether or not parameters(regarding processes performed in-house) to should be applied or even considered.

 

[P. McKinley]

Rick - This is something I've thought of as well.... and for the exact same reason as you state. Tough call in this specific case as outsourced heat treat is withing the rules. So, on some level such a contest can be construed to be a "heat treat challenge". As I see/understand it, this is the pivotal procedure that will define the level of blade performance.

I like challenges. I enjoy figuring out how to do things on my own. So heat treating has presented enormous challenge from day one in my knife making journey. I've screwed up more blades than I have successfully produced, but the resulting frustration has only deepened my desire to get it right. Its only been in the past two years or so that I've become confident heat treating 10xx steels, so that's what I work with. I'm now proud of the blades that I produce from my bare-bones shop.

So, if I enter one of my pieces in a judged knife maker's contest I want it to be my work.... all my work(with the exception of smelting). If my knife is being judged against those with farmed out heat treatment then I know my work is up against the industry standard. If my knife performs well against that competition, I know I've done it right(and visa-versa). Is it a "fair" competition? Hell no! In such a scenario I do consider my work to be handicapped, if only due to the equipment I use - I heat treat in my gas forge and kitchen oven. But, if I do get it right and my knife performed well..... I'll be VERY proud.

On a related note: how do I make mosaic pins?

-Peter

 

[JBS TOOLMAKER]

This is why I'm sure lots of makers avoid "challenges". This goes back to the whole forging vs. stock removal vs. full CNC mid tech. I n a true challenge there would be no rules, you would make the best knife you can by any means necessary. I'm all for steroid use in Pro sports, at least it would be entertaining again.
Seriously, I know where you are coming from. I do it all as well, and I do feel heat treat is a major part of being a maker. I see this a lot in the folder world. You will hear people say "he has a CNC spittin out knives all day" " that's not making knives " I call BS. Whatever tool you use does not matter, you are still an artist. The CNC does not program itself...the hammer does not fall in the right place itself. I was a tool and die maker for 17 yrs. I have programed CNC's wire EDM's, but I grind every blade by hand.
Back to the challenge thing, what is this ? You mean like a cutting competition ?
Jason

 

[AVigil]

I don't get it, Adam? I know Bob outsourced his heat treat. What is the point? The arguement isn't whether or not a true knifemaker does his own heat treatment. It is on the ethics of a Maker's Challange and whether or not parameters(regarding processes performed in-house) to should be applied or even considered.

If it is a "Makers Challenge" then what is the problem with outsourcing heat treatment? That is very traditional for a knifemaker to do. If you want a "Sole Authorship Challenge" then the title is self explanatory that all process should be done by one person.

 

[Rick Marchand]

This topic has a low flashpoint and I want to stress...

As someone who wants their customers to have a great knife and at the same time, needs to put food on the table... I do not have a problem with makers would farm out heat treat for convenience or on the occasion when the equipment onhand just won't cut it(no pun intended). If you make 5 swords a year, it might not be worth the investment of a 48" deep salt pot. In that case, send them out. If I ever got into stainless, super steels, I would most likely start with farming out the HT... but I know it would eventually see me doing it in-house. As it stands, I would not feel comfortable entering a CPM blade into a maker's challenge... but I would not have ethical issues with making and farming out HT on a CPM knife for a customer. I hope that point is coming across well enough.

 

[GTH11]

Im with you to a dergree on this Rick, It is a challenge and in the shear sense of the word, not only is the knives functionality being challenged, but the makers skill sets as well! I think all of us want to heat treat our own blades, I know im planning on buying a kiln this year for my SS stuff, and Im capable of heat treating 10xx with great results, on cutting tests, brass rod, even to the destuction and grain inspection! I need a couple more shop items to really build my cofidence in HT at the forge, basically PID, and RC tester. When my SS goes to Peters I know the recipe is followed to the T, which is Great, but on the same token when I send Peters some HC its gonna get the industry recipe...which for us isnt always what we need, Im gonna have to draw back a waki I sent out. If Im entering a knife in a challenge and Ive done the HT and I win, Its gonna feel better owning every process. Now if Im gettin beat by Outsourced HT in the cutting scenarios Im gonna be scratching my head!

 

[Rick Marchand]

If it is a "Makers Challenge" then what is the problem with outsourcing heat treatment? That is very traditional for a knifemaker to do. If you want a "Sole Authorship Challenge" then the title is self explanatory that all process should be done by one person.

Maybe it is traditional to outsource heat treat... I could be wrong. Can you point me to a resource that would convince me otherwise? You are okay with a knifemaker not heat treating their own blades for a challenge. Perhaps we don't share the same emphasis on heat treatment. That is cool. You have done your own, I believe? How do you feel about the grinding/finishing?... or handles?

Funny note on the poll. More people feel that the heat treatment can be sourced out, where the actual smelting of the steel could not. I would have expected to see almost ALL the vote to include smelting your own steel as not being necessary for a challenge.... Ha! Knifemakers

 

[KFU]

Ill give my take for what its worth. I voted for farming nothing out. That being said, I don't make my own sheaths. Being a part time maker I decided that for me the knife is where I want to spend my time. Heat treating is very personal. I think its one of the most important skills in making a knife so I think it should be done by the maker. To me, not earning a living doing this, having blanks waterjetted and farming out heat treat takes the "passion" out of making a knife.

 

[Mike Gesualdo]

Knifemaking is a new endeavor for me, so I can't speak with any sort of authority... but I don't really think it's a black and white issue. For a two-sentence opinion, if the contest doesn't specify that outsourcing something is disallowed or will be judged differently, then it is fair game. Make what you like making however you like making it, not what you think should win a contest.

Extended, and I apologize in advance if my thoughts are kind of disorganized, I tend to think out loud: One thing I do have quite a bit of experience with is costume making. Had some fun making myself Halloween costumes in High School/College, happened to be pretty good at it, and eventually had a handful of people commissioning me to make things for them every year, mostly for things like comic conventions and Halloween. I did participate in a few competitions for costume making, and won a couple of fairly significant prizes, so I will try and draw parallels from my experiences in that.

I believe there is value to both doing things on your own and outsourcing. Like any do-it-yourself project or creative endeavor, there is a certain pride to be had in being able to claim sole authorship over the entire creation of something. Also, from an outsider's view, it is impressive when someone does things on their own.

Now, things can usually be "disassembled" or simplified down to their primal form pretty far. What I mean by this, and you touched on it with the smelting aspect, is the question of where things become handmade. Technically, if someone buys a pre-hardened/sharpened blank and slaps some scales on them, it is a hand-made knife. When I started making costumes, I generally just bought up similar looking things from Goodwill, did some minor alterations, and called it done. If they're happy with their product and proud of their work, more power to them. There's nothing wrong with that. Heck, it's better than most of the population has done anyways. However, if you're like me, and I'm sure most people here are, that's not good enough. Next step, buy a profiled blade, grind a bevel. Next you move on to stock removal. Maybe you're happy there, maybe want to forge your next one, make your own micarta, or whatever else. Also, like you said, you can smelt your own steel if you so please. Heck, I could have spun my own thread and created my own cloth. Do I think there is a generally accepted level of practical "outsourcing?" Yes. Do I think it's wrong if someone doesn't do their own heat treat, or even makes knives with pre-ground blades? No, so long as they don't claim otherwise. Do I think the more "primal" the beginnings of a knife, the better? Not necessarily, but it is always impressive.

Now, there is a balance to this. First off, many people lack the tools or skills necessary to produce the product they want to make and would be proud to share with others. One costume I made required some machined metal pieces. Prior to that, I had generally just cast them out of resin and painted them with metallic paint, but this particular one, I wanted to do it right. I had one of my buddies machine them out of aluminium for me. While I would have loved to do it myself, I lack a lathe and mill, as well as the skills to do it properly. Despite not doing everything completely on my own that could be handmade, I was happier with my final product. While I can heat treat my own 1084 with my forge, I'm basically barred out from using any steels that require a heat treating oven.

There's also the reality that some people are better than others at things. I had to paint a lot of props and such that went with the costumes I made. For one particular costume, there was a weapon that was kind of the centerpiece. I could have done the painting on my own, and it would have looked good, but I wanted it to look great. One of my buddies is an extremely talented artist and took on the task... and the result made the costume complete. Made the whole package go from average to outstanding, despite all of the other details involved in the costume. While I do my own heat treating currently, I don't sell any knives right now. If I ever get to the point where I sell what I make, I could see myself outsourcing heat treating if I wasn't extremely confident in my skills or didn't own an oven. While I love doing things on my own, a knife is a tool that is meant to perform. I wouldn't feel comfortable selling someone a tool when I know it could have performed better if I had let someone else do the heat treat. As far as a contest goes, I believe outsourcing heat treatment should not detract from a knife for that reason. That said, if I were handed two knives to judge, and both were equal at all aspects, however one of the makers did their own heat treatment, I would likely favor that one slightly. Though, if one performed poorly due to poor heat treatment, I do think it detracts from the overall product. Same goes with things like sheathing, or etching, or whatever goes into the final work. A great sheath can make a knife, but one made by the maker also has its merits. Basically, I think there's something (positive) to be said about both doing your own as well as knowing when to outsource to get the final package you are happy with.

For a contest, this question all depends on the audience anyways. If you send the same dozen knives to a dozen different people, they're not necessarily going to choose the same knife. Just because the poll says outsourcing heat treating is acceptable or unacceptable in a contest doesn't mean all who judge will agree. If doing your own heat treat makes you happy or more proud of your work, that's all that matters. If someone with a professionally heat treated knife wins the challenge, it by no means makes it unfair, nor does it necessarily make their knife "better" than your own. Who is the "better" knifemaker or produces the "better" knife is all a matter of opinion, and honestly shouldn't matter... and what one person thinks is "acceptable" may not be to another.

Anyways, that's my thoughts. I apologize again for my thoughts being as cluttered as they are, that's just how my brain works Hopefully they make at least a little sense, haha.

 

[Kentucky]

I can definitly see where you stand here Rick..Heat treating is very important to me, I take it very seriously..So much so that we bought a new kiln instead of a new grinder if that tells you anything..Ive never had an isuue with a maker outsourcing heat treat..None what so ever..The only thing that has bothered me at times is when I see people say that a makers heat treat is not as good as a outsourced heat treat..Ill call BS everytime..Peters 1475* is the same as my *1475* Their parks 50 is the same as mine, etc..Now they have the equipment to more easily heat treat very complex steels but some of us spend a great deal of time researching and testing heat treat..If someone wants to pay Peters, hey thats great..More power to ya' but dont think my heat treat is less than yours because I do it myself.We have hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars tied up in our heat treat.Thats insulting..
Now anyway I tend to lean in your direction here..Now I wouldent care at all to put one of my knives up against a Peters heat treated blade(steel for steel of course) but maybe you boys should lay some ground rules amongst' yourselves on these makers challenges..
Oh and you forgot to add None to your list of choices..

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

In knifemaking as a business or hobby, the BEST RESULTS are what is important. If that requires sending out blades for HT because you don't have the equipment or skill...that is good knifemaking.

In a knifemaking as a competition, or challenge, the competition is on knifemaker's PERSONAL SKILLS, not his ability to outsource a high quality knife. In this situation, all major functions of forming and producing the knife should be done by the entrant. The smelting is not part of the knife making, nor is the sheath. The rest of the list is the makers task in a competition.

 

[javand]

In knifemaking as a business or hobby, the BEST RESULTS are what is important. If that requires sending out blades for HT because you don't have the equipment or skill...that is good knifemaking.

In a knifemaking as a competiton, or challenge, the competition is on knifemaker's PERSONAL SKILLS, not his ability to outsource a high quality knife. In this situation, all major functions of forming and producing the knife should be done by the entrant. The smelting is not part of the knife making, nor is the sheath. The rest of the list is the makers task in a competition.

I agree with Stacy.

If we all agree that HT is the heart and soul of a knife, then any knife being HT'd by someone else was certainly not *made* by just the guy that designed it, even if he ground it, whatever. Not saying you're not a knife maker, but it's not an expression of your skills alone. Your HTer is part of your team, whether they know it or not.

That's why the ABS clearly spells out guidelines regarding test knives for Journeyman and Master. Simply put *all* work must be done by the individual maker, down to any detail of embellishment.


Farming out a sheath is a different animal to me, it's simply the "packaging", yes it may be important to sell a knife, but it's not in any way a piece of the knife, the knife doesn't cease to be, or do what a knife does without it. Although if the competition includes the overall "package" as a criteria, that'd be different.

Smelting is a big leap in the opposite direction, yes, you can't have a good knife without good steel, but it's a (one) material in the "making" of a knife. Heat treat is part of the process of making a knife. That's the differentiation, just like wood or whatever is a "material" for making a knife, not a process. The process, would be growing a tree, or an elephant and then cutting it down, etc, etc.

Now you could go down to so many levels of esoteria, but it's important to clarify what "processes" make a knife, and in my mind, there's a difference between a "knife maker" and a "knife designer", or maybe even simply a "knife assembler", and yes, those lines can sometimes be narrow.

 

[Matt Markell]

In knifemaking as a business or hobby, the BEST RESULTS are what is important. If that requires sending out blades for HT because you don't have the equipment or skill...that is good knifemaking.

In a knifemaking as a competition, or challenge, the competition is on knifemaker's PERSONAL SKILLS, not his ability to outsource a high quality knife. In this situation, all major functions of forming and producing the knife should be done by the entrant. The smelting is not part of the knife making, nor is the sheath. The rest of the list is the makers task in a competition.

I can see where you are coming from.

The thing is, in my situation, I can either send my blades out to be heat treated or do them in a campfire. I did heat treat my first few blades in 1084 in a campfire and I have used those blades a lot. They have held up reasonably well.

Since I started selling my knives though, I have had them professionally HT'ed because I wanted to sell the best knife I could make to my customer. I don't try and represent my knives as a sole-authorship creation though.

When I have the funds, a HT oven is at the top of my list. At the time though, I can barely afford new steel.

If you guys feel that my knives do not belong in the makers challenge, I'll drop out. Simple as that.


To sum up my philosophy, I do as much work as I can myself unless it would result in an inferior final knife. That includes shaping, finishing, mounting, sheathing and sharpening my knives. I don't smelt the steel and I don't heat treat it (though I would if I could). I make the best knife I can with the equipment I have.

 

[javand]

Matt, I don't think anybody would begrudge you trying to produce the best knife possible for your customer..

I think the question though, is whether it's a "best knife" challenge, or "best maker" challenge.

If it's a maker challenge, and Paul Bos does your HT (as an example), then you'd be pitting both you and Mr Bos' work against the effort of say Rick by his lonesome. So would it really be an fair comparison of your skills? Or simply the end results?



Maybe it's time to just start clarifying the conditions of a challenge.

 

[Rick Marchand]

If you guys feel that my knives do not belong in the makers challenge, I'll drop out. Simple as that.

Absolutely not, bud. That wasn't the point of this thread. We have already agreed in the W&SS Challenge that HT outsourcing is fine. This latest contest had the parameters outlined.

 

[JBS TOOLMAKER]

Back to the challenge thing, what is this ? You mean like a cutting competition ?
Jason

 

[james terrio]

The best heat-treat in the world (no matter who does it) won't make a round bar cut. A well-ground or forged blade that's completely annealed will cut very well - just not for very long.