Possible Irrational Rant Alert (GONE POLL)

[rwn2000]

JBS, I haven't looks but it's probably in the Wilderness Skills section. They do different challenges every so often.

randy

 

[james terrio]

It amuses me that the only people who ever seem to get wound up about who does their own HT aren't customers or reviewers or testers... just folks who do their own HT.

...when I send Peters some HC its gonna get the industry recipe...

Not necessarily, and frankly that's an unfair and misleading statement. Give them a call, they'll oblige pretty much any recipe, target hardness, or procedure you prefer. It may interest you to know that they wrote some of those "industry recipes" specifically for knife blades - not bearings or airplane parts or the valves in your cars engine. They do know the difference.

 

[Rick Marchand]

It amuses me that the only people who ever seem to get wound up about who does their own HT aren't customers or reviewers or testers... just folks who do their own HT.

It shouldn't amuse you... it kinda makes sense. Most users/testers in these challenges are concerned more with performance, than how it is made. You could esily get away with having several operations outsourced. I am only talking about qualifying a "Maker Challenge". IMO, it should be run differently than a "Knife Challenge". If part of the judging was based on the sheath design and build, would someone who had Paul Long make theirs be allowed to submit it? Edge retention, toughness and strength ARE critical factors in these challenges. Heat treatment plays a major role.

 

[JBS TOOLMAKER]

JBS, I haven't looks but it's probably in the Wilderness Skills section. They do different challenges every so often.

randy

Thanks man...I guess I'm on some ignore list.

 

[Shaw Blades]

Interesting that there are some votes for sharpening and finishing being outsourced in this poll.

 

[Matt Markell]

Absolutely not, bud. That wasn't the point of this thread. We have already agreed in the W&SS Challenge that HT outsourcing is fine. This latest contest had the parameters outlined.

Glad to hear it

Back to the challenge thing, what is this ? You mean like a cutting competition ?
Jason

The W&SS Makers Challenge

The best heat-treat in the world (no matter who does it) won't make a round bar cut. A well-ground or forged blade that's completely annealed will cut very well - just not for very long.

Amen. Some of the worst cuts you can get come from plain ol' sheet metal.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

The thing that needs to be considered in any response to this thread is the OP question...which is about entering a knifemakers challenge, not about how people make knives.
I think we all agree that farmed out HT is hard to beat.

 

[james terrio]

If part of the judging was based on the sheath design and build, would someone who had Paul Long make theirs be allowed to submit it?

As long as they're up-front that it was made by Paul Long, and he gets the credit, why not? Do I only get half-credit for my sheaths because my wife stitches them?

I am only talking about qualifying a "Maker Challenge". IMO, it should be run differently than a "Knife Challenge".

Are you sure you're not talking about a "Heat-Treat Challenge"? So set two categories - self-HT and outsourced HT. I'll put Brad Stallsmith's HT up against anyone's. Or at the least, insist that makers disclose who did the HT. I can't think of anyone who isn't completely upfront about that, anyway.

Edge retention, toughness and strength ARE critical factors in these challenges. Heat treatment plays a major role.

Of course they are, and of course it does. No one with any sense would argue that they're not.

To be clear, I'm not upset about this, and I hope I'm not coming off that way. I have nothing but respect for folks who learn to HT well - it's a skillset all its own. It is indeed a valid and interesting topic. But like the old "art vs. science" flame wars, it can get pretty murky and emotional.

Interesting that there are some votes for sharpening and finishing being outsourced in this poll.

I wonder if they're thinking of having blades bead-blasted or powder-coated? As for sharpening, a knifemaker should certainly be able to put an edge on his own knives. Most of us are pretty particular about our edges.

 

[Kentucky]

It amuses me that the only people who ever seem to get wound up about who does their own HT aren't customers or reviewers or testers... just folks who do their own HT.



.

James I can honestly say that Ive never once commented on someone doing their own vs farmed out..The only time Ive been upset(and even then I didnt say anything) was when I was bascially told my HT was inferior because I wasnt farming it out..Then another time I was accused of "not being a real knife maker" because I was trying to help a guy make a set of tube flaring dies..I had actully bought my own from Tracy but this dude didnt have the money and I was just trying to help him..Then the expert breaks in and says that he had better listen to a "real knife maker" and buy the dies..Yet I said nothing and took the high road..I still think that farming out HT is just fine, I just dont think its fair to say that something is inferior just because we do it ourselves. Remember we are suppose to be proffesionals..Thats why peope pay us to make knives for the.Please dont think Im being argumentative, Im just explaining my position on it..

 

[sunshadow]

In a knifemaker's challenge I firmly believe that the ONLY acceptable outsourcing is smelting the steel (although I would love to do a stone to blade challenge if I had a couple of weeks free time or my press build finished)

-Page

 

[sclawshark]

I understand Rick's angst, but on some levels allowing outsourcing evens possibly unfair variables out and let's makers compete on a creative level as to grind, design, geometry, etc.

For example, If heat treating is allowed then what about the well off maker who has digital kilns at his disposal and possibly an apprentice to monitor the progress. His task is reduced to programming the computer. In all competitions people will have advantages, heat treat is the most capital intensive aspect and thus the most likely to be excluded in a format like this one.

 

[Rick Marchand]

The thing that needs to be considered in any response to this thread is the OP question...which is about entering a knifemakers challenge, not about how people make knives.
I think we all agree that farmed out HT is hard to beat.

Thanks, Stacy... that is what this thread is about. I was targeting a particular scenario that pops up every now and then. It may simple be an issue of semantics.

 

[Rick Marchand]

In a knifemaker's challenge I firmly believe that the ONLY acceptable outsourcing is smelting the steel (although I would love to do a stone to blade challenge if I had a couple of weeks free time or my press build finished)

-Page

I guess I should just man up and accept that this is my stance, too. Anything else, and I think the title of the challenge needs to be changed. It is important to note that I feel this logic only applies to maker challenges.

 

[AVigil]

If the goal is to produce the best knife it might be interesting to let the knifemaker determine how he will produce the knife and then after all the testing reveal exactly what was done in the production of the knife.

When you listen to Dwight Dwyer talk about some of the heat treating they have done with Strider knives it is not something someone can do in a home shop.

I am all for sole authorship and practice it for many of the custom items I have invented and make. But sometimes if you want the "Best" then sending it to the best place for a certain procedure is what makes for a superior product.

So having a Sole Authorship Knifemakers competition sounds like it will be exciting to see who comes up with what.

 

[AVigil]

If the goal is to produce the best knife it might be interesting to let the knifemaker determine how he will produce the knife and then after all the testing reveal exactly what was done in the production of the knife.

When you listen to Dwight Dwyer talk about some of the heat treating they have done with Strider knives it is not something someone can do in a home shop.

I am all for sole authorship and practice it for many of the custom items I have invented and make. But sometimes if you want the "Best" then sending it to the best place for a certain procedure is what makes for a superior product.

So having a Sole Authorship Knifemakers competition sounds like it will be exciting to see who comes up with what.

 

[Clem Kadiddlehopper]

I out source my total knife making - but do my own sheaths....

Now days as long as a maker is up front about it - it seems to go.....

Bose out sources some of the heat treating and his are some of the most sought after slip joint knives going.....

 

[GTH11]

James,
Unfair and misleading statement??????

Ive got Brad on speed dial, AND the industry recipes I was reffering to are the ones used by the cutlery division at peters! I dont think for one second a 52100 bearing will be treated the same way as a blade at peters!!! BUT i also dont think Brad will clay back some 52100 for us to work out a hamon? OR take a torch and draw back the 5160 Waki I sent him?

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Lets look at it this way:
If I had Nick Wheeler make a knife to my specifications, could I say that I outsourced the work, and enter it as my knife in the challenge?
Or, send a CAD file to Nathan and have him machine the entire knife and handles and sent out for HT. Of course, I would screw the handles on myself.
Or just buy a Strider and enter it?

If it is a challenge for knifemakers to MAKE a knife, then the only entries acceptable should be a knife they MADE.

 

[Rick Marchand]

If it is a challenge for knifemakers to MAKE a knife, then the only entries acceptable should be a knife they MADE.

Eggs-Zachary... I think folks are getting confused, which could be my fault for not explaining properly. Some contests require specific rules to keep their title relevant. Don't call it a maker's challenge if you are only interested in the final product.

 

[Dave Behrens]

HT is the only aspect of knifemaking I outsource (except smelting of course). I am just not set up for it...even though I have a 24" Paragon...sitting in the corner of my shop...collecting dust...STOP LOOKING AT ME LIKE THAT!!!:mad

Any way. Rick by your logic, if I am participating in a "Maker" challenge and I; draw the design, cut it out, grind it, drill it, balance it, contour the handle, attach the handle, finish the product, sharpen the blade, and make the sheath (I disagree with many on the importance of making your own sheaths). But in the midst of that process I send the blade out for HT, by your logic I should withdraw my entry for that challenge.

While I don't necessarily like sending my knives out for HT, if I don't then I don't make any knives, but I am kind of a hypocrite on this issue because I feel the same way you do if someone outsources the cutting and grinding for a challenge knife.