Possible wire edge problems?

The problem is that one type of edge won't do everything. Give Cliff's recommendation a try and use a coarser grit. This gives the edge microserrations to rip into the tape rather than be deflected by it.
 
Well I tried several several solutions just to compare and rule out some things. The most durable performer was just a pure 220 grit edge that was shaving leg hairs pretty well. I didn't raise the angle, I just finished with several ultra light strokes. I got about twenty cuts before it was just about over with minimal blade damage.

The most aggresive performer was a shaving 220 grit edge finished off with three alternating ultra light strokes with my x fine stone raised to the next setting on my aligner. It cut a bit meaner than just the plane x-coarse edge, but it didn't last any longer, and there was a bit more burr left on the edge. This may be cause I kept cutting even after it was actually over. I still got through the strap in one to two cuts towards the end, but I really had to bear down and this may account for the larger burr. This edge seemed to get smoothed out a lot quicker with this config. also.

I also have to give a superlative to an ex fine polished edge that I finished with four ultra light strokes raised to the next setting. It didn't perform as well as the x coarse edge, but took me from two or three cuts to ten or fifteen before it was all over. The ensuing burr was also a bit more noticeable on this one.

So I think around twenty slices shoud be satisfactory as now I don't have to wory about edge failure on one or two swipes, but I am still wondering about the leftover burr. Is this to be expected from even a clean piece even if I have to start to really bear down to get through in one or two swipes.
 
I'm not sure of the terminology here. You refer to a burr as if it's something produced by cutting. I think of a burr as the very thin edge formed on a newly sharpened blade, that needs to be cleaned off or it will chip off or roll, degrading the seemingly sharp edge.
 
Well it feels the same as a burr, so I just figured that's what it is. I'm certain though that I could'nt just knock it off at have a nice edge left over, although I havn't really tried. I've just sharpened my knife like normal.
 
I've read complaints about chipping these newer steels when they are profiled too thin, but not rolling the edge over. That is what is unusual in this case I guess.
 
It really sounds like you aren't cleaning off that wire edge/burr when you originally sharpen.
 
When you have dulled the knife, lightly cut directly into the stone with the edge to remove any weakened steel. This should really help in minimizing any burrs during sharpening.

Mike
 
matt321 said:
I've read complaints about chipping these newer steels when they are profiled too thin, but not rolling the edge over. That is what is unusual in this case I guess.
Click to expand...

I'm convinced that my thin back bevel isn't coming into play here as the depth or thickness of my primary bevel is large enough for me to slide my fingernail on. I would estimate about .7 millimeter of surface or more based on a # 7 pencil lead.

So I'm at the delima as is being stressed that I may be leaving a wire edge in my sharpening process.
 
gunmike1 said:
When you have dulled the knife, lightly cut directly into the stone with the edge to remove any weakened steel. This should really help in minimizing any burrs during sharpening.

Mike
Click to expand...

I'm so confused. ;)

I've been working so hard to raise burrs when I sharpen. I'm assuming you are meaning burrs from compromised steel.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
It really sounds like you aren't cleaning off that wire edge/burr when you originally sharpen.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid of that, and I'm really uncertain on how to remove it with an ex-coarse edge. I already knew that the the ex coarse edge worked well, but I was convinced that the fine edge should work just fine considering how much sharper the edge got. I got so into the fine edge that I forgot how well the toothy edge performed, but I still get a rolled edge after about twenty cuts. That's up from three or four with the fine edge. Now I don't think I want to strop a toothy edge although I could try it with the black rubbing compound that I got with the compound set I bought from Sears. Or I could do like gud4u suggested and take a swipe or two at the next setting, but I'm really uncertain how much if any pressure to apply. I can attain the lightest of strokes while using the Aligner and I'm uncertain if this is my goal for the elevated last stroke or strokes. I just don't know if this last feather stroke is going to be heavy enough to get the wire edge and there isn't any way to weigh a stroke over the internet other than me claiming that I can get the lightest possible stroke by holding my knife vertically and just barely touching the stone to the knife while I am making the pass.

On top of that, even when I take just one ultra light stroke at the next setting, I just about loose all shaving ability with my toothy edge, but I geuss that's evidence that the stone is cutting the edge.
 
You may need to get with someone who can work with you in person. Any knife knuts in your area? Any knife shows you could go to? Once you see it done effectively, you'll realize you were THAT CLOSE! :D
 
Nosetotail said:
My biggest issue here is that I can't fathom the wire edge. I can picture a burr being on one side or the other, but I can't picture how a wire edge can levitate perfectly between the two opposing angles. I use my guided aligner with extreme care not alowing my guide rod to float period, and I feel I have the straightest edges I can possibly get. As a result, I am very tentative about going over my angle very much and possibly rounding my edge.
Click to expand...

OK, I went back over the thread and re-read this. What's a wire edge anyway? It is the meeting point of the edge bevels on both sides of the blade. When you sharpen a blade of whatever thickness, you bring both sides of the blade to a point (which running the length of the blade is a line) of such minimal thickness that it can be bent by almost any light pressure.

Once I have sharpened a blade, I strop it on my shirt sleeve or pants leg, first a couple of licks on one side, and then on the other. Then I run my thumb, angling it away from the edge (I don't want to rub parallel or I'll get sliced!). On the side I stropped last, it feels smooth. On the other side, I feel a light friction.

In other words, the stropping has bent the very thin sharp edge over, and my thumb is rubbing against it standing away from the blade. THAT is the wire edge I need to break off. When I do, the edge left behind will be ALMOST as thin and sharp, but not so fragile.

How do I remove the wire edge? Quick & dirty, I take a ceramic rod and I strop the blade along it at about a 45 degree angle. (You don't need a rod, you can do it on the edge of any benchstone.) I test it the same way I did when I finished sharpening it -- strop it on a shirt sleeve. Repeat with slightly increased pressure stropping until the wire edge is gone.

Then I usually lightly polish the edge with a very hard stone to smooth the damage where the wire edge broke off.

* ****** **** ****** *

Do you know the difference between sharpening and stropping? We throw terms around without defining them for each new guy sometimes. Sharpening is working your blade edge first into the sharpening medium. Stropping is working your blade at a similar angle with the edge against the medium, but moving toward the back of the blade.

* ****** **** ****** *

What sources have you read about sharpening? We have a few listed that will each fill you in different aspects of what you might need to know.

EDC Knives Sharpening FAQ
http://www.edcknives.com/pdf-files/Sharpen_v2.pdf

Knife Maintenance and Sharpening
http://forums.egullet.com/index.php?showtopic=26036

Sharpening Made Easy
http://users.ameritech.net/knives/knives1c.htm

Convex Grind FAQ
http://home.nycap.rr.com/sosak/convex.htm

Sharpening the Ontario - Jerry Hossom
http://hossom.com/sharp/
 
Nosetotail said:
I'm so confused. ;)

I've been working so hard to raise burrs when I sharpen. I'm assuming you are meaning burrs from compromised steel.
Click to expand...

When you use your knife you form weakened steel along the edge. You can remove this by cutting directly into the stone so that you are working with good steel when you sharpen. And yes, I try to NOT form a burr when sharpening. I have got much better results when trying to not form a burr in the first place, as when I don't my sharpening just turns into a chase the burr session. I usually end up forming a tiny burr that is easily removed by a couple very light passes at a slightly elevated angle as compared to having to make several passes at a more elevated angle to remove the burr (which undoes much of your previous work to get the knife sharp), or if I am having a good night and using good steel I won't form a burr at all and just have a sharp edge. If you use microbevels on thin edges this technique is much easier to do as you are working so little steel that it is much easier to avoid burring and takes only a few passes to get the knife sharp again.

Mike
 
gunmike1 said:
And yes, I try to NOT form a burr when sharpening.
Mike
Click to expand...

That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure considering how much raising a burr is stressed around here. Before I started learning from this forum, Everything I did was to avoid a burr at all cost. I never realized that raising one was the predominant method for sharpening. I assumed it was an undesired byproduct, and I had become quite proficient at getting my ats-34 edge shaving sharp(both sides) using the techniques I had developed to avoid the burr. I never considered that my edge may be faulty, I just assumed that I had dealt with the burr. When I replaced my old knife with my zdp blade, I initially ran into problems getting a shaving edge, so I learned from this forum to raise a burr, then I used my old techniques to nock it down. I'm not sure if this has improved my results, or just forced me to work a lot more on my edge which gave me good results, but now I don't have any problems attaining a shaving edge(both sides), even with an ex coarse stone. I have or had a micro bevel that has grown quite a bit in a few weeks. I rebeveled just to make sharpening easier, but I had already turned to raising a burr. I think I'll try refreshing my back bevel and give it a go at avoiding a burr.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
OK, I went back over the thread and re-read this. What's a wire edge anyway? It is the meeting point of the edge bevels on both sides of the blade. When you sharpen a blade of whatever thickness, you bring both sides of the blade to a point (which running the length of the blade is a line) of such minimal thickness that it can be bent by almost any light pressure.

Once I have sharpened a blade, I strop it on my shirt sleeve or pants leg, first a couple of licks on one side, and then on the other. Then I run my thumb, angling it away from the edge (I don't want to rub parallel or I'll get sliced!). On the side I stropped last, it feels smooth. On the other side, I feel a light friction.

In other words, the stropping has bent the very thin sharp edge over, and my thumb is rubbing against it standing away from the blade. THAT is the wire edge I need to break off. When I do, the edge left behind will be ALMOST as thin and sharp, but not so fragile.

How do I remove the wire edge? Quick & dirty, I take a ceramic rod and I strop the blade along it at about a 45 degree angle. (You don't need a rod, you can do it on the edge of any benchstone.) I test it the same way I did when I finished sharpening it -- strop it on a shirt sleeve. Repeat with slightly increased pressure stropping until the wire edge is gone.

Then I usually lightly polish the edge with a very hard stone to smooth the damage where the wire edge broke off.

* ****** **** ****** *

Do you know the difference between sharpening and stropping? We throw terms around without defining them for each new guy sometimes. Sharpening is working your blade edge first into the sharpening medium. Stropping is working your blade at a similar angle with the edge against the medium, but moving toward the back of the blade.

* ****** **** ****** *

What sources have you read about sharpening? We have a few listed that will each fill you in different aspects of what you might need to know.

EDC Knives Sharpening FAQ
http://www.edcknives.com/pdf-files/Sharpen_v2.pdf

Knife Maintenance and Sharpening
http://forums.egullet.com/index.php?showtopic=26036

Sharpening Made Easy
http://users.ameritech.net/knives/knives1c.htm

Convex Grind FAQ
http://home.nycap.rr.com/sosak/convex.htm

Sharpening the Ontario - Jerry Hossom
http://hossom.com/sharp/
Click to expand...

First off, let me say that I certainly appreciate that you haven't given up on me, and that you have put some effort into this thread.

I understand quite a bit about a burr but I have some clarification questions, and you will have to forgive me for asking what may seem to have already been answered for me.

My main question is can there be a wire edge that isn't detectible? More specifically, Can there be a wire edge that doesn't favor either side of the edge, but it is still there waiting to be rolled when used?

Secondly, can I shave on both sides of the blade with a burr on one side?

I always figured that shaving both sides was evidence that I had effectively knocked the burr down.

Third, I'm very shakey on how to preserve my ex coarse edge and knock the burr down effectively. I've always considered stropping to equate to polishing, and this conflicts with what I am trying to attain with the toothy edge.

The last is a question you may not have the answer to. If I am ultra diligent in smoothing the burr down with several ultra light alternating strokes at my primary bevel angle, is it possible that I have completely removed the burr, or is it just a fact of life that I have to take progressive measures to knock the burr down after any significant sharpening? In other words, is that burr just going to keep flopping back and forth until I take something to it as you described?

Forgive me for being so stubborn against trying to strop, it's just that I have become quite proficient at using my Aligner but the only thing I have actually learned with the Aligner is what not to do, and what is left over to do produces good results. Now I have to actually take the time to learn how to do something, and I'm not actually that disciplined. I can get near perfect bevels with my aligner, and anything else in my mind would be detracting from those perfect bevels. It doesn't help that each attempt I've made with stropping has only reduced how well my knife shaved, and further it helps even less that on the day I recieved my knife, it came agressively sharp, and it only took a few freehand swipes with the ceramic light bulb filament I had on my desk to eliminate all shaving ability. That was the same day. I looked awful rediculis sharpening my brand new expensive knife.



I haven't read anything other than what I have seen on here, but I understand geometry, and I can picture the microscopic edge and the angles meeting although I haven't actually seen one to know what is happening. I can get a knife shaving sharp with my aligner, however I wasn't aware that i may be leaving weak steel. Dang, I just thought about all those knives I sharpened at work.
 
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