Possibly ruined Wicked Edge 100 grit stone?

[fvdk]

Op, you very likely did not ruin your 100 grit stones.... The wicked edge diamond stones are some of the most durable I've found. Dmt's were pretty terrible in my experience

I have the same experience. I bought my WE 4 or 5 years ago and the stones are still perfect. I also have the DMT Aligner with the full range of stones but do not like it at all.
Like Wowbagger, I think it is useless for smaller knives and in my experience the stones are of mediocre quality. Even the $4.- Chinese Diamond Ruixin stones seem to be a lot better.

To the OP... when you get your WE 50/80 stones, be careful not to apex your knives with them as they are very aggressive and you could end up having to spend more time refining the edge with the finer stones again.

 

[cbwx34]

Are you removing burr with high angle passes?

high angle ? ! ? !

BLASPHEMY !

Ha,ha,ha

I am a shallow edge freak. So nah dude, nah

No I find the best way is to do most of my sharpening with the edge meaning the stone is going down the bevel and then off the edge and once I am about totally done, at a higher polished edge usually, I take a pass or two up the bevel, against the edge to help remove the wire / foil like flap and then a time or two back down the bevel to HOPEFULLY fix some to the microscopic damage I envision that I caused. I have a phobia of stropping . . . so that's the way I deal with it.

For me edge shape is every thing and I hate rounding the very smallest part of the bevel by stropping. I can very clearly tell the difference when trimming something hard like hard plastic or my fingernails.

I smiled when I read this, in part because at one time I felt the same way... why go to all the trouble of sharpening at a low angle, just to have to raise the angle to remove a burr?

But over time I've learned that raising the angle to remove the burr, is different than creating a microbevel. My edges come out MUCH MUCH better and last WAAAAAY longer. Done properly, there's no evidence of a microbevel or second edge, even under magnification. (I'm sure there is at some level, but not a factor).

So, give it a try... with a bit of practice, guaranteed the results will be a big improvement.

I haven't really read much on keeping diamond stones wet/lubricated but the idea interests me. I have a small spray bottle kicking around I may try spritzing the stone next time I have a big reprofile to do, couldn't hurt right? At the least I'd assume it would cut down on some of the abrasive dust that comes off.

Easiest way is to put a wet sponge on a plate next to the W.E., and pat the stone on the sponge before sharpening.

[video=youtube;XF-cuE16U_0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF-cuE16U_0[/video]

To the OP... when you get your WE 50/80 stones, be careful not to apex your knives with them as they are very aggressive and you could end up having to spend more time refining the edge with the finer stones again.

Definitely! :thumbup:

 

[wvdavidr]

Does dipping WEPS diamond plates in water cause them to rust? I have avoided moisture because of this concern.

 

[Wowbagger]

I don't have Wicked Edge diamond stones but I did mention rust on my yellow plate.
As I recall the diamonds are set in thin layer of nickel so that isn't rusting (no iron in those obviously). As far as I can tell the plates the diamond is on is stainless steel so only a very limited chance of rust there.

Mine only rust after setting a long time unused and it is just some blotches; never an all over blemish. I am thinking the rust comes from just residual swarf from the blades sharpened on the plate. I always rinse them under a running faucet when I am done (whether or not I use water for the actual sharpening). I never attempt to dry any of my diamond plates and just let them air dry. No big deal.

 

[Wowbagger]

cbwz34,

But over time I've learned that raising the angle to remove the burr, is different than creating a microbevel. My edges come out MUCH MUCH better and last WAAAAAY longer. Done properly, there's no evidence of a microbevel or second edge, even under magnification. (I'm sure there is at some level, but not a factor).

So, give it a try... with a bit of practice, guaranteed the results will be a big improvement.

Sounds frightening.

I'm listening though.
I come from a woodworking back ground and sharpening for the really cantankerous woods (except those from Australia THOSE LADS ARE REALLY IN A WHOLE DIFFERENT WORLD I HOPE TO NEVER HAVE TO DEAL WITH. There is a little part of me that says "Bring it on ! I can sharpen for anything" but then I give him a dope slap and tell him to get back in his cage.)

What I am saying is I have a pretty darned good idea of what works for heavy cutting and long term cutting and what is counter productive. Obviously you know better than me for pocket knives BUT it sounds kind of like stropping or running the edge through the wood to get rid of the bur and I can guarantee you that both are a BAD IDEA. The best performance was ALWAYS pick an angle, the minimum angle that would not tear out or fold up and that was the best angle. Any roundy roundy was the equivalent of dulling the edge / ruining the geometry.

Best to stick to a finite angle and go through the grits until the foil like wire came off in little bits on the stone.
Then walk by a strop on the way to the woodwork and wave but don't stop to chat. If you know what I mean.

The wood in the photo is Bubinga. Highly tear out prone, somewhat abrasive and ALWAYS HARD (think hard plastic with a tricksters passion for messing with you all the time). That's the first photo.


This is the final result with no finish on the table. Any misjudgment in the edge quality causes hunks to tear out and or the edge to just stop cutting and judder across the surface causing damage so pronounced one can see it from across the room. Granted this edge was quite obtuse and not "shallow" but the angle was unmolested. "Cheating" as you describe would have caused surface damage or at the very least reduced quantity of material removed between sharpening .



That and purple heart wood which can be more of the same but even more so. They DEMANDED that I really pay attention hard to every detail of my edges. Purple heart is the next two photos. My work bench. All hand tool work; no sand paper touched either wood (the table or my work bench).





It was a hard won battle but I mastered both woods. After that I feel I can sharpen for anything that can be cut.

I will experiment with what you have told me but I feel like I am going over old ground which I found to be bad form and counter productive short-cutting. Perhaps all is different when it comes to pocket knives. By the way the steel I use almost exclusively for the plane blades is A-2. Maybe. . . hahaha . . . I ONLY know how to sharpen A-2.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Generally I only use microbevels when sharpening for other people. For myself I know how I'm going to be maintaining the edge and so I just hit it at the target angle.

I do use a strop depending on the tool in question, but is a mighty hard one and any rounding is very slight. Otherwise I'll strop on plain paper just to shine up any burrs if they're still there and on lower RC steel it will burnish the edge a bit.

There's no arguing with the "rough" finish on those surfaces, carry on!

 

[cbwx34]

Does dipping WEPS diamond plates in water cause them to rust? I have avoided moisture because of this concern.

I've never noticed it... I do pat them dry on a towel after use though.

What I am saying is I have a pretty darned good idea of what works for heavy cutting and long term cutting and what is counter productive. Obviously you know better than me for pocket knives BUT it sounds kind of like stropping or running the edge through the wood to get rid of the bur and I can guarantee you that both are a BAD IDEA. The best performance was ALWAYS pick an angle, the minimum angle that would not tear out or fold up and that was the best angle. Any roundy roundy was the equivalent of dulling the edge / ruining the geometry.

Best to stick to a finite angle and go through the grits until the foil like wire came off in little bits on the stone.
Then walk by a strop on the way to the woodwork and wave but don't stop to chat. If you know what I mean.

"Cheating" as you describe would have caused surface damage or at the very least reduced quantity of material removed between sharpening .

Perhaps all is different when it comes to pocket knives.

Very nice work! :thumbup: Hope you don't mind... I just extracted a few points to reply to.

Don't think that I know better than you... just sharing what I've found works for me. I too have found that running the edge through wood to get rid of the burr doesn't work... and is not the same. Best I can describe is, I'm doing just enough to sharpen off the burr, without creating a microbevel (again of any significance). Should have mentioned before, but after doing this, I'll usually return to the original angle and make a few final alternating strokes... maybe this rids the edge of any microbevel created. (I just use a handheld microscope... can't tell with that). I really can't consider it 'cheating'... for me, it's just an effective and best way of getting rid of a burr.

I do occasionally use a strop... but not to debur, that should be done prior to stropping. I think stropping a burr off contributes to the "rounding" effect that people often describe. For me a strop, while I'm sure it removes some trace burr I can't otherwise detect, is primarily for further refining the edge.

This also works for burr removal without having to go to a polished edge to remove it... so different in that respect. (Obviously, we're sharpening for two different results here.)

I'm sure the edge needed for the work you're doing is different than what is needed for a pocket knife. A bit of anecdotal evidence... years ago I attended a sharpening seminar at a woodworking store by a woodworker/sharpener who does the same type of work you do (creating finishes smooth enough no sandpaper needed, etc.) The seminar was for knives also, so I took a knife for him to sharpen. He worked on it for about 20 min. and gave it back to me with a noticeable burr. I pointed it out to him, and he said that the "steel was bad" and he couldn't get rid of it. Now, I know it's just one knife, and there could be a dozen reasons why... but I still have and use the knife, and no problems deburing with the described technique. (like I said, anecdotal... just another small piece of the sharpening learning pie).

 

[HeavyHanded]

One thing I keep noticing between woodworking tools and regular cutlery, the high RC carbon steel of most plane irons and chisels lets go of that burr very easily. All a little different when it comes to alloy content and RC.

Also to add, I have found the drag thru wood to effectively eliminate burrs in some cases, but not by itself. I'll use it as part of a rhythm - drag, pass on abrasive, drag etc. I don't do it often unless really preparing a down and dirty edge quickly, but it seems to work and I cannot clearly describe how. Mostly if it doesn't disappear quietly without help, I'll back drag the apex across the same piece of waterpipe or wood to make the burr stand proud and eliminate it that way with little more stone work, rather than drag the edge itself.

I avoid edge dragging most of the time because it can make small parallel scratches in the edge from other steel bits in the same cut previous, and then the burr just hides. I also don't favor running the edge parallel on regular stones for the same reason unless on very fine polishing grade stones where scratch pattern is basically irrelevant.

 

[Wowbagger]

This is a great thread. Thanks for taking the time to reply to my posts guys.

cbwx34

Best I can describe is, I'm doing just enough to sharpen off the burr, without creating a microbevel (again of any significance). Should have mentioned before, but after doing this, I'll usually return to the original angle and make a few final alternating strokes... maybe this rids the edge of any microbevel created.

Thanks for the clarification.

HeavyHanded

Mighty hard strop.

I can see that.

To All

Sorry to be so ignorant but are all of the stones on the Wicked Edge diamond ?
Is that how they get around not needing to compensate for various thicknesses of stone (meaning stone wear) ?

The Wicked Edge setup is very attractive meaning fast and precisely registered.
In the video I would have liked to see some kind of rail or track preventing the long knife from flexing but probably that doesn’t effect the final edge too much; I mean if it were a problem they would have addressed it by introducing a long knife accessory.

The seminar was for knives also, so I took a knife for him to sharpen. He worked on it for about 20 min. and gave it back to me with a noticeable burr. I pointed it out to him, and he said that the "steel was bad" and he couldn't get rid of it.

I am surprised he left the burr. Most wood dudes that have a pretty good handle on sharpening would have at least resorted to moving the blade across the stone so the abrasive is cutting in the same line as the edge. Leaves parallel scratch pattern to the edge and is weak (as HeavyHanded was talking about) but would have been better than leaving a burr to break off and would have passed the “looks good for the photo shoot” test.

 

[fvdk]

Sorry to be so ignorant but are all of the stones on the Wicked Edge diamond ?
Is that how they get around not needing to compensate for various thicknesses of stone (meaning stone wear) ?.

They have diamond and ceramic stones as well as various strops and blanks for lapping films which can all be used as-is and all but the most basic system come with micro-adjustable Ball Joint and Guide Rod Assemblies

They also have chosera stones which vary in thickness and these can be used with the optional Variable Stone Thickness Adapter

Frans