Post-pocket extraction use of Emerson Wave

S

Spaniel1967

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Aug 18, 2019
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It's amazing how facile some YouTubers are in opening up various pocket knives. But I wonder how securely we can open our pocket knives in a stress situation.

In this regard I believe the Emerson Wave feature is excellent, with one caveat when carried "clipped in".

First, let's look at the mechanics of opening a folder. And it starts with ideal grip.

THE ideal pocket knive grip is hand wrapped around the handle completely. Of course, in that mode, it's impossible to open.

The next best grip is pinching the handle between thumb and forefinger (or side of index finger). This way the hand is out of the path of travel when the blade opens.

HOWEVER conventional opening requires taking the thumb off the handle to manipulate a stud, hole, or disk. So in a panic situation you actually have very little grip on the handle - the all important thumb can't pinch AND open at the same time.

The only YouTube opening style that seems to preserve thumb to finger pressure is a middle finger opening, which is tricky to pull off.

The best alternatives I've been able to come up with are (1) Emerson clipped to pocket or loose in pocket and Wave-opened during withdrawal; and (2) Emerson Wave-assisted opened by partially reinserting into a pocket to give the Wave prong something to catch onto (Emerson on desk; Emerson loose in jacket pocket).

(And flippers. These allow pinching between thumb and middle finger while using index finger on the flipper.)

Ironically the classic "clipped in" Emerson gives less of the handle to pinch during Wave assisted opening, and "deep carry" pocket clips only make the matter worse.

Has anyone else worried about opening a folder in a stress situation? It's really convinced my why fixed blades are better, although more restrictively regulated.
 
With modern bearing Flippers or autos I don't see any reason why to go an older technique that is less efficient. I would dare say my assisted flippers even easier but if I had one knife for all occasions including emergencies it would be a Kabar, for a folder it would be one of my Reate flippers.
 
:) Most of the folders I carry either come with wave openers or have been modified to wave open .

A nice big fat fob helps a lot , but each type of wave opener acts a little different and each knife has it's own unique properties .

Properly performed , this is the fastest method and fairly reliable . But you need to practice and have a backup opening method that you automatically apply if the wave fails . My backup method is just the inertial , shake out . Works the easiest on the longer , more massive blades . Much faster than trying to reinsert or other ways . YMMV but works for me ! :cool::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
The Wave is a neat feature, but I find other one-hand openers (Walker, Axis) pretty efficient, and a lot less hazardous.
 
The last 3 or 2(minus pinkie) fingers and your palm provide a lot of control with all kinds of openings. It what gives you a strong grip if you grab someone's jacket. Frees up your thumb to do other things or your flipper finger. If you just hold the knife with your fingers and operate the flipper that's too fine of a motion for stress situation in my book.
 
I don't care much about this self defense aspect of folding knife carry
but
and don't get me wrong I enjoy the heck out of my Cold Steel knives for work knives . . . I even use a Holdout One in the kitchen regularly . . . but it's kind of ironic that of all my knives I find the thumb stud opening on the large and extra large Cold Steels to be the most awkward. I have to kind of think about and slide my hand forward on the knife so I don't run out of thumb reach to bring it around the bend and home. Yes wrist and arm help get these open but I have been in close quarters working where I run into something doing that and fail to open the knife; this could happen in a SD situation as well.

Off the top of my head I am thinking the Holdouts and the Counter Point 1 which I happen to have next to me on the couch as I type this ( just used it to help The Chef open some packages she just brought home.) I handed the knife to her and she acted like I had been dropped on my head; . . . wants the big dumb head guy to work that big ridiculous knife thank you very much . . . since we have to have big ridiculous knives . . . which we don't.

Isn't it remarkable how much can be conveyed by a single quick glance.

Probably one of my most no brain to open tactical like SD knives would be my 710. The thing flies open if I just kind of think about opening it.
My Ti Lites are pretty awesome that way as well.
 
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K.O.D. said:
If I was worried about this kinda thing I'd carry an OTF auto.
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Which is probably why they are illegal unless you fall into a limited number of exceptions - thanks, Blackboard Jungle (1954 "switchblade terror" movie). Thanks NYC.
 
jp9mm said:
I think anything you do well during a stress situation comes down to muscle memory so it will be a reflex reaction.
Practice makes perfect.
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I actually tried using an Emerson trainer vs. my jiu jitsu friend. At a "friendly, safe feeling" distance he took me down every time before I could even get the knife out. And that was knowing he was going to rush me. His most effective move was double leg then body (or hand or arm) blocking access to my pocket. I think this is why pocket knives are mostly legal and fixed blades are almost universally illegal.

Despite all the people carrying pocket knives for self defense (without ever admitting it, because if you do, you are de facto carrying an illegal weapon instead of a legal package opener), pocket knives seem to make terrible self defense options. Bad guys just close the distance too fast if they are up to no good.
 
Spaniel1967 said:
Which is probably why they are illegal unless you fall into a limited number of exceptions - thanks, Blackboard Jungle (1954 "switchblade terror" movie). Thanks NYC.
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Wrong. They are perfectly legal here in the Corrupted Socialist State of Illinois. I was at my local gun shop and handled five or six. As long as you have your FOID, (Firearm Owner's Identification Card) it's perfectly legal to own and carry one.

They are a cool novelty. But I'd rather carry a pistol for SD, or even better, avoid areas where the likelihood of needing to defend myself is high.
 
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Spaniel1967 said:
I actually tried using an Emerson trainer vs. my jiu jitsu friend. At a "friendly, safe feeling" distance he took me down every time before I could even get the knife out. And that was knowing he was going to rush me. His most effective move was double leg then body (or hand or arm) blocking access to my pocket. I think this is why pocket knives are mostly legal and fixed blades are almost universally illegal.

Despite all the people carrying pocket knives for self defense (without ever admitting it, because if you do, you are de facto carrying an illegal weapon instead of a legal package opener), pocket knives seem to make terrible self defense options. Bad guys just close the distance too fast if they are up to no good.
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The whole 'knifes are bad for self defense' argument has been done plenty, that's why i generalized my statement.
But before you go selling your entire knife collection for some krav maga lessons ... a 'high stress situation' could be cutting a seat belt before a car explodes or cutting away your tangled main shoot with just seconds to deploy your reserve before crashing into the ground, etc :)
 
jp9mm said:
The whole 'knifes are bad for self defense' argument has been done plenty, that's why i generalized my statement.
But before you go selling your entire knife collection for some krav maga lessons ... a 'high stress situation' could be cutting a seat belt before a car explodes or cutting away your tangled main shoot with just seconds to deploy your reserve before crashing into the ground, etc :)
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I remember how I got caught in some kind of drill press a long time ago as it grabbed my coveralls, the motor stopped and I pressed the red button with my free hand... Maybe that's why the idea of one hand opening fast knife is just soothing to me to this day.
 
A knife is probably never going to be an ideal SD choice, but I’d rather have one than not. To me a knife is a tool, then a nice deterrent in a gun grab situation, and lastly a great get off me motivator. But as a primary SD weapon that I think I can deploy at a moments notice to thwart a spontaneous attach, not so much.
 
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Spaniel1967 said:
I actually tried using an Emerson trainer vs. my jiu jitsu friend. At a "friendly, safe feeling" distance he took me down every time before I could even get the knife out. And that was knowing he was going to rush me. His most effective move was double leg then body (or hand or arm) blocking access to my pocket. I think this is why pocket knives are mostly legal and fixed blades are almost universally illegal.

Despite all the people carrying pocket knives for self defense (without ever admitting it, because if you do, you are de facto carrying an illegal weapon instead of a legal package opener), pocket knives seem to make terrible self defense options. Bad guys just close the distance too fast if they are up to no good.
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:) Not necessarily so ! A pocket knife can be a very effective close quarters weapon for SD .

I usually carry an XL sized Cold Steel waved knife in each front pocket . I can draw either or both faster than you can blink . Faster than a fixed blade , by far .

I also have many decades of "hard style" karate practice . So I have some ability to maneuver , block and strike .

The knives are merely a "force multiplier" . I'm kinda old and need an "edge" . :p

I also usually have a nice solid walking stick or cane , which is always already in my hands and ready . My first line of defense . :cool::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 
Your “Jiu Jitsu friend” is trained in combat. I’ve been doing BJJ for more than two years and I can tell you that few weapons frighten me. I know takedowns and how to figure-four extremities to control my opponent. That said, a sharp knife is highly useful vs. multiple opponents. Nothing creates space quite like the arching flash of a knife in front of you. My BJJ instructor (a third degree black belt and private security contractor) has been in more self defense situations that anyone I have ever met and that includes a few of the SEALs that train with us. Knife fighting is a joke, but drawing and flashing a blade is excellent at creating space and separation.

As an aside, have you actually looked up knife laws in your area? You seem extremely ignorant of the knife laws in most states. I’m fairly certain more states than not allow fixed blade-carry. I carry an Izula II every day and I live in Nevada. We have no length restrictions.

TL;DR: Fixed blades are legal in most places and a knife is a perfectly reasonable self defense tool. Also, train Jiu Jitsu for Christ’s sake.
 
Spaniel1967 said:
I actually tried using an Emerson trainer vs. my jiu jitsu friend. At a "friendly, safe feeling" distance he took me down every time before I could even get the knife out. And that was knowing he was going to rush me. His most effective move was double leg then body (or hand or arm) blocking access to my pocket. I think this is why pocket knives are mostly legal and fixed blades are almost universally illegal.

Despite all the people carrying pocket knives for self defense (without ever admitting it, because if you do, you are de facto carrying an illegal weapon instead of a legal package opener), pocket knives seem to make terrible self defense options. Bad guys just close the distance too fast if they are up to no good.
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I've mentioned these incidents before a few times (check out the "Defense Knives" thread in PracTac), but several years ago in my local area, a man reported as an MMA practitioner got into a meaningless fight with another guy outside of a bar, took him down, and was in the process of mounting him when the other guy stabbed him several times from underneath with a "pocket knife." He ended up stabbing him over a dozen times, and MMA guy died. The other guy went to prison.

In another incident, a champion collegiate wrestler who was also a wakeboarder known to win street fights pulled a nerdy-looking guy out of a car and took him down, supposedly for making a pass at his GF. A friend of the wrestler ran up and also started kicking the guy who was down. While down, the nerdy-looking guy accessed a knife, which turned out to be a Spyderco Endura, and stabbed backwards over his shoulder once, which ended up severing the wrestler's aorta. The wrestler/wakeboarder died. The 'nerdy-looking' guy was sent to prison, but later when the true facts came out, it was ruled SD.

In some other city either in the Midwest or east coast, a guy was attacked and being beaten by a gang member with a lengthy criminal record. The victim pulled out a knife and stabbed; the gang member's friends thought he was punching their friend. In reality, he was stabbing the thug in SD, and the knife was a Spyderco Military. The gang member died, and IIRC, it was eventually ruled he acted in SD after a televised trial on CourtTV, in which commentator Nancy Grace criticized the defender for carrying "a machete".

I am NOT glorifying knives for SD, nor am I recommending carrying them for that purpose. I am saying that, in at least the last two cases, the knives in evidence were later shown on TV, and neither had a wave opener, yet somehow they were deployed by the users during the heat of stress in real situations. I am saying that sometimes things don't happen as they are 'supposed to' happen, or even in the way they're 'not supposed to' happen. I point this out because there are all sorts of theories out there on what does and doesn't work, when in reality, anything can and does happen in real life. And in all three of the above cases, none of the attackers had any knowledge that the other guy had a knife prior to, or even during the incidents.

Jim
 
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