Potentially problematic judgement in Canada

Mightymic said:
So I too have been the latest victim of this judgement, for a Spyderco Tenacious. When speaking to the customs agent she told me that each knife is tested by an agent and if the knife can be opened partially, and then completely by centrifugal force, it is in violation. I asked about the pivot screw... the agent told me that if it is too tight, then it was obviously done to try to circumvent them, and it too will be in violation.

In the Official Customs Document D19-13-2-e.pdf (Page 11); The exception specifically states in 22. Torsion bar assisted-opening knives (folding knife, speed-safe knife, spring-assisted knife)
Then in Section 23. In some cases, torsion bar assisted-opening knives can be opened automatically by gravity or centrifugal force. If this is the case, these knives would fall within the definition of prohibited weapon, and be prohibited under TI 9898.00.00 unless an exemption in that tariff item applies.

The fact that their tests circumvent the detent when the knife is closed by opening it up "partially", and then conducting the "Centrifugal Force" tests, seems a little under handed to me.

Looks like they dotted their "i's" and crossed their "t's" on this one... I mentioned that the term "device attached to the handle" being a thumb stud or flipper on the blade = the blade itself, so why would a Victorinox not fall in this class? The agent told me that type of knife is listed as an exception. She told me that the bottom line is that ANY knife that can be opened with one hand will be subject to this judgement.

Nice... I just lost this Tenacious with custom glow scales and backspacer... a 200$ (CAD) knife in total. I don't know what to do... I feel sick to my stomach about all this.
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They confiscated a Tenacious??? That's pretty ridiculous.

Same with the pivot screw argument. By their logic, they could then just loosen the pivot a bit on pretty much ANY knife, open it 'centrifugally' and then confiscate it. That's pretty absurd. Some knives have stronger detents and pivots because that's how they are designed and manufactured. Are they just going to assume a 'tight pivot' is because someone is trying to get an illegal knife into the country and then confiscate it?

These kind of laws or what not are way too subjective. Seems like now it comes down to a gamble on what customs agent happens to open or inspect your package and how THEY personally run their 'tests' or how they interpret the laws.

And if they end up banning all flippers... that's just short sighted and sad.
 
I really think something needs to be done about this. They are setting a precedent based off appeals that cherry-picked a definition of the term "device" by extending the definition to "anything that is attached to the handle of the knife." That there folks is the blade. This will circumvent any "Speed-Safe" patent or torsion bar design. They can target any one handed opening knife.

I also feel that the "Centrifugal Force" tests are done so in a manner that defeats the built in safety design of the detent. They completely by-pass the detent by partially opening the blade... then conduct the "flick" test. The game is rigged... you can't win.

Canadians need to band together to get this over turned. Perhaps some manufacturers can step in and lend their voices, yet they aren't that affected as they export in bulk to suppliers that can get the knives imported for local sale. I feel that without a voice... no-one will hear us.

What are your thoughts guys?
 
Your best bet would be a letter to your MP noting that unelected bureaucrats have taken it upon themselves to circumvent the law and defacto ban a common tool. We have just started the election run up and the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Then if any of the big guys like gear or knife stores or custom builders can add their voice it would increase the exposure.

And last look into starting a petition on here https://www.change.org/start-a-peti...yVcXDSMuyZ0UHOt2eAT2EXFPUgRezWNqgpC6sfb4S4994 be very careful of the wording an intent. Too strident and you loose traction. Emphasize that these are legal and commonly owned items that have been in the public's hands for decades without incident and that this agency is trying a backdoor social engineering dodge to deprive people of their property.

Put up drafts here of the title and question for criticism and advice.

And last of course don't buy stuff that isn't legal and won't pass and have in mailed in to you Hail Mary maybe they'll not open the package fashion.
 
Thank you Danke42 for your suggestions. I'll be writing my MP this week, and will look into the online petition.

Kevin, I just saw your video on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0ovq6lWkuY) very well done. One thing that needs to be highlighted is that they are no longer targeting just flippers. They are doing this to all one-handed opening knives. My Tenacious has no assist or opening mechanism, just a spydey-hole. They are targeting ZT's and Kershaw's where the "Speed-Safe" design was explicitly mentioned in the Official CBSA Memorandum D19-13-2 Section 22 (http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d19/d19-13-2-eng.html#a4x2) then they cover their asses by placing in Section 23 stating that IF the knife can be opened by Centrifugal Force.... yada yada.. I feel their "Flip Test" is rigged like a Carnival Game. The agent I spoke with yesterday morning told me "We open the blade PARTIALLY, *then* we flick the knife open." That means almost ANY folder (besides a slipjoint) can fail the test, as they by-pass the designed detent keeping the blade in a closed position.

We are slowly entering into a very slipper slope here.... I predict in 2 years, if nothing is done, then Canada will be like the UK and Australia regarding one-handed opening knives. It is under handed because they are circumventing their own laws, and applying them based on their own interpretation and citing a "precedent" to keep the classification "bulletproof". I realize that nobody has won an appeal, and it appears fruitless, but I think *EVERYONE* who receives this judgement *SHOULD APPEAL* and let's clog up their system with appeals!!! If every person files an appeal, they are going to run out of storage space to hold all those confiscated items. The 90 day hold, then destruction, will be stretched out. The media can get hold of the story about why this is happening and what should be done exposing all parties in a public court of opinion. The CBSA will look very foolish when First Responders and Emergency Personnel complain to the press that these "evil-one-handed-opening-knives" are essential to their day to day jobs.

On principle... I think everybody should file an appeal and we'll see what impact it will have. You won't win... as I said, the game is rigged, but it would be a massive volume of appeals that they would need to address somehow.

Thoughts??
 
I don't understand the reason and purpose behind this "newly effective" legislation.

You can still buy a Kershaw on amazon.ca for a better price than knifecenter. Thanks to our unglorious CND$ rate. Why being so strict all of a sudden if there's no money to make?
 
The big guys move their flippers by the container load pre-cleared by customs.

No agent in their right mind is going to start a war with Canadian Tire or any of the other big sellers.

Little guys like you and me though sure look like easy marks. I like to surprise people who think I'm a pushover.
 
I've also have had an issue, they have seized a Brian Nadeau Typhoon that was en route to me....citing the same federal judgement "AP-2012-072".
It seems to be only at certain CBSA crossings so far.... but the agent i talked to said his prediction is it will go nation wide very soon.
Any Canadian lawyers on the forum willing to tackle this ?? lol
Since the Typhoon was deemed prohibited I have received 2 other knives - both flippers - that sailed through....One had even been opened by CBSA...
But neither went through the crossing the Typhoon did...
This is messed!!
 
nairb-ca said:
I've also have had an issue, they have seized a Brian Nadeau Typhoon that was en route to me....citing the same federal judgement "AP-2012-072".
It seems to be only at certain CBSA crossings so far.... but the agent i talked to said his prediction is it will go nation wide very soon.
Any Canadian lawyers on the forum willing to tackle this ?? lol
Since the Typhoon was deemed prohibited I have received 2 other knives - both flippers - that sailed through....One had even been opened by CBSA...
But neither went through the crossing the Typhoon did...
This is messed!!
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Sorry to hear, that sucks for sure! They have my Diesel from Enrique Pena still... next up, trying to export it back to the US... but you're point just helps to prove more and more that it's completely subjective as to what they grab and what they don't. Completely ridiculous though. There's no logical argument that can be used against 'flippers', which sadly, won't mean much. Common sense is often in short supply in these types of rulings and cases :rolleyes:

What location was yours going thru customs at? Mine was at Mississauga

EDIT: Also, what does that mean for Canadian makers that make knives with flippers?? Now will they be creating 'illegal weapons'?

Also, I had a flipper from Brian Tighe that I ordered from GP Knives go right thru customs in 5 minutes (says tracking) just 2 or 3 months ago. They seem to still cherry pick, but at a much higher rate these days. Not liking the direction it's going.
 
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Mine went through....
VILLE ST-LAURENT, QC

And your absolutely right about the Canadian makers....
Lambert, Lightfoot, Rassenti.... the list goes on and on....

go_DWI said:
Sorry to hear, that sucks for sure! They have my Diesel from Enrique Pena still... next up, trying to export it back to the US... but you're point just helps to prove more and more that it's completely subjective as to what they grab and what they don't. Completely ridiculous though. There's no logical argument that can be used against 'flippers', which sadly, won't mean much. Common sense is often in short supply in these types of rulings and cases :rolleyes:

What location was yours going thru customs at? Mine was at Mississauga

EDIT: Also, what does that mean for Canadian makers that make knives with flippers?? Now will they be creating 'illegal weapons'?

Also, I had a flipper from Brian Tighe that I ordered from GP Knives go right thru customs in 5 minutes (says tracking) just 2 or 3 months ago. They seem to still cherry pick, but at a much higher rate these days. Not liking the direction it's going.
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nothing has changed at all. its all the same laws. no border agent has the right to change policy at their whim. but yes they can confiscate anything they decide doesn't fit the regulations. leaving a lot of crap in the air. lets face it also, a lot of knives can easily be opened by shaking the handle violently. and thus are potentially illegal.

the most recent problems seem to be with non assisted flippers being confiscated. trust me when I tell you that very few makers make a proper detent on a flipping knife. ive handled thousands of flippers at shows and very few would survive a screening at the Canadian border.


that cited document should not be a deterent. it is the perfect document to reference if you take them to court for wrongful confiscation.
 
They seized my Benchmade 710 once,had to pay for shipping back to a dealer to tighten the pivot and then shipping back to me.
 
Well, my knife is officially headed from the CBSA to my brother in the States. Actually doing the paperwork for export wasn't too bad, but what an annoying extra expense...
 
Stiletto's pretty much got automatic knives banned, now they are going to get assisted as well? LAME!... But what really ticks me off, is that "Mr Christie" went to court without a lawyer. You can never win no matter what without a lawyer! If the cops say the sun is purple, and Obama is a space alien, guess what. The sun is purple and Obama is a space alien. He should have left with his other 9 Stilettos, and took it as bad luck, instead of arguing over 3 cheap and faulty knives.

I'm not going to worry about it, as technically carrying any knife in Canada is illegal without a "Cause" like needing to open a box. And can be confiscated at will by the police.
 
cbrstar said:
I'm not going to worry about it, as technically carrying any knife in Canada is illegal without a "Cause" like needing to open a box.
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Wrong.
Just plain wrong.
Actually, really, really wrong.

I'll leave it at that (but yeah, you're wrong).
 
I know we are discussing knives crossing the border here but based on this definition:

a knife that has a blade that opens automatically by gravity or centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device attached to or in the handle of the knife" as a prohibited weapon.

And given the fact that they upheld the decision. If I was on my way to work with a flipper that I use as a tool in my daily life and was stopped by the police. I assume (even though I purchased it in a from a Canadian retailer) that the Police would be justified in confiscating the knife and even pressing charges. I mean obviously if you mind your manners you wouldn't likely be shipped off to the big house but in all likely hood the knife would not be returned. Does sound about right?

If it does, why can we go to the mall and buy one?
 
DRK said:
I know we are discussing knives crossing the border here but based on this definition:

a knife that has a blade that opens automatically by gravity or centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device attached to or in the handle of the knife" as a prohibited weapon.

And given the fact that they upheld the decision. If I was on my way to work with a flipper that I use as a tool in my daily life and was stopped by the police. I assume (even though I purchased it in a from a Canadian retailer) that the Police would be justified in confiscating the knife and even pressing charges. I mean obviously if you mind your manners you wouldn't likely be shipped off to the big house but in all likely hood the knife would not be returned. Does sound about right?

If it does, why can we go to the mall and buy one?
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The decision was upheld for the border people, not the police of Canada.

It is a stupid border issue, not the law of the land.

A flipper is part of the blade, not the handle.
You're fine within Canada as long as it doesn't open by centrifugal force or gravity.

The border is region is stupid, and the laws seem open to interpretation there.
I avoid dealing with border hassles as much as possible.
 
stabman said:
The decision was upheld for the border people, not the police of Canada.

It is a stupid border issue, not the law of the land.

A flipper is part of the blade, not the handle.
You're fine within Canada as long as it doesn't open by centrifugal force or gravity.

The border is region is stupid, and the laws seem open to interpretation there.
I avoid dealing with border hassles as much as possible.
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What if one happened to get the wrong police officer on the wrong day and they confiscated the knife. I would think from how loosely worded this law is the chances of getting the knife back could be slim?
 
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