Powder Steel

It could be just how I use my knives, but comfort of the handle, blade shape, grind and edge grind seem to make more of a difference than anything else in why I choose one knife over another and how well it seems to perform for me. I don't really understand the steel love. For example, my interest in Busse knives has absolutely nothing to do with Infi - I like them (certain models) because of those wonderful mag scales they put on them.
 
My favorite new knife, the BRKT Bravo-1 SS is in CPM154 steel. Seems to hold an edge well. Lots of makers are using the powdered steels now. Shown below are the Al Mare SERE Operator in S30V, SOG Team Leader in 20 CV, Bark River Bravo-1 SS in CPM154, and the Bayley Bear Grylls in RWL34.
CPM001.jpg

Other than the Bayley, all these knives are readily available.
 
Fiddleback, I don't think Kevin was talking about the more complex steels.Powder metal steel is usually reserved for the more complex steels such as S30V and other CPM grades and similar European types.The European powder steel is made differently from CPM but the result is essentially the same.It is of course a more expensive process but it's a better steel.
Performance is still dependant on carbide size and grain size. Another steel that should see more use like O1 is A2.Wear resistant ,takes a fine edge.
 
mete said:
Fiddleback, I don't think Kevin was talking about the more complex steels.Powder metal steel is usually reserved for the more complex steels such as S30V and other CPM grades and similar European types.The European powder steel is made differently from CPM but the result is essentially the same.It is of course a more expensive process but it's a better steel.
Performance is still dependant on carbide size and grain size. Another steel that should see more use like O1 is A2.Wear resistant ,takes a fine edge.
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OK. Thanks Mete.
 
mete said:
It's not only the carbide size that powder steel can give you.Steels like ZDP189 have very high carbon content .It is possible only by making it by powder steel methods.
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It's vanadium. CPM steels can be produced with higher vanadium content than is possible with conventional methods.
 
Fiddleback said:
Mete, how would you compare performance of these powdered steels to properly heat treated 01 tool steel?

Not that I'm going to stop using 01 either way. I'm just interested to know whether a lot of this is fad/hype, or if these steels are truly on another level.

This page from Kevin Cashen's website is why I ask.

http://www.cashenblades.com/Info/Steel selection/O1.html
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Do you think Randall's heat treat of their Uddeholm ARNE 01 is pretty good?
 
SubaruSTi said:
Do you think Randall's heat treat of their Uddeholm ARNE 01 is pretty good?
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You'd have to ask one of our metalurgists. Mete is one, Kevin Cashen is another. There are more, but those are the two sources I use when I want to know for sure.

I know this much. 01 was designed for edged tools. But you have to hold it at critical for a while to get the most out of it. (I'm very excited because I just ordered a paragon furnace so I'll really be able to get more out of the steel nowadays.)
 
I think rwl 34 is spray formed and so isn't the same as the cpm process, though characteristics are "comparable" when alloys are the same. There is some advantage to sprayformed steels in certain application
 
I am a metallurgist [note proper spelling !] not a knife maker.Kevin is a knife maker [highly skilled !] with an extensive knowledge of metallurgy !
I was unable to find the HT process used by Randall.
Vanadium, in small amounts like the .20 % in RWL-34 is used to get a finer grain. Larger amounts also add high wear resistance from the vanadium carbides.
 
Dean Wormer said:
I believe RWL 34 and CPM steels are produced using a similar process.
http://www.highseats.co.uk/RWL-34_files/rwl34-datasheet.pdf
http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/general/generalpart3.html
Both rely on atomization of the molten metal to produce a powder that undergoes hot isostatic pressing before forging and rolling.
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Yes, but the purity and size of the powder is what makes the difference. The same powder but with different size particles, which deteramines carbide size in relation to density, is the difference. Fine powder is very expensive.

Otherwise the process is as you describe. Forming powder in capsules and "cook" them in hot isostatic pressing (HIP). The rest of the process is the same as for the strip steel we make at Sandvik. Forging/hotrolling down to the size you want. Only we start with melting and casting instead of forming and HIPing.

One of the coolest PM-steels I've seen is a high alloy powder steel which has 3% nitrogen (completely replacing carbon for hardness) and Crhome and Vanadium. It's corrosion resistance properties is comparable to a 300 type steel, better than H1 for example while still having a very fine structure and a Rockwell of 62-64HRC. It's not on the knife market yet though. Only out for some tool applications. But there are nice things coming, I assure you.
//Jerker
 
Razorsharp, that alloys sounds very interesting !! It's sometimes frustrating to be retired !
 
Razorsharp244 said:
One of the coolest PM-steels I've seen is a high alloy powder steel which has 3% nitrogen (completely replacing carbon for hardness) and Crhome and Vanadium. It's corrosion resistance properties is comparable to a 300 type steel, better than H1 for example while still having a very fine structure and a Rockwell of 62-64HRC. It's not on the knife market yet though. Only out for some tool applications. But there are nice things coming, I assure you.
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Yes, that is very interesting. INFI that Busse uses has some of the carbon replaced with nitrogen in the alloy and makes a pretty goog knife; hard, tough, good wear resistance, and reasonably corrosion resistant, but knives made from it are only available from Bussie. I'll be watching for news on this one. Thanks for the info.:thumbup:
 
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Razorsharp244 said:
So they are the same then. SG (SGPS) is the same. Super Gold (Powder Steel).

The Powder steels I know of in knife applications.
  • CPM S30/60/90/110V
  • CPM 154 and RWL 34 (they are similar in composition)
  • CPM M2/M4/D2
  • ZDP189
  • SG (SGPS, SG-2)
  • Elmax
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Hej Jerker,

Is Uddeholm Elmax used as blade steel by a known knifemaker or is it more for experiment?

//Rickard//
 
Razorsharp244 said:
One of the coolest PM-steels I've seen is a high alloy powder steel which has 3% nitrogen (completely replacing carbon for hardness) and Crhome and Vanadium. It's corrosion resistance properties is comparable to a 300 type steel, better than H1 for example while still having a very fine structure and a Rockwell of 62-64HRC. It's not on the knife market yet though. Only out for some tool applications. But there are nice things coming, I assure you.
//Jerker
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Wow! Sounds mighty good... like some kind of souped-up INFI!

I have several powder steel knives but all of them are folders. For bigger fixed-blade knives, I'm still sticking to 1095, 52100 or INFI so far.




Stay sharp,
desmobob
 
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