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Preserving an old fur trade belt axe
- Thread starter upnorth
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2009
- Messages
- 15
What a foolish argument. The Smithsonian today does not steal bones from Canadian Native peoples. It is well and widely recognized that doing so was a bad thing, and NAGPRA has led to much of those items being returned. By your argument, taking it to the logical conclusion, because Alexander the Great slaughtered women and children in his India campaign, then, it is OK for armies to slaughter women and children today. I mean, after all, the greatest general in history did it, why not us too? Heck, the Brits used to touch of dynamite around the Great Pyramid to see where the ground would collapse so things could be looted, so it is OK today to touch of dynamite on the great pyramid and see what we can find. And when Bonaparte's soldier's blasted the Sphinx, well, gosh, that makes it OK to take an AK-47 to that old boy...
The thread should be shut down and removed. Looting is wrong, even when done with metal detectors on a riverbank. This thread is an embarrassment. Your post is an embarrassment.
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2009
- Messages
- 15
I do not understand your point. You were speaking of the Smithsonian, and, now, you resort to talking about private collections, because the Smithsonian returned artifacts. And, then, you go on to assert that "the Smithsonian who doesn't really want to give...," which, aside from the obvious grammar errors, is nothing more than a baseless assertion. A bizarre one at that, as many archaeologists, as well as archaeological professional societies, support returning grave goods. I struggle to think of a professional archaeologist who does not support NAGPRA.
The analogy holds as well. Your logic runs something like: just because bad things were done in the past, it is OK to do bad things today.
Learn how to spell, use commas, and master basic grammar, such as subject, object, verb agreement and tense.
I won't post here or reply to your drivel again.
This thread should be shut down and removed. It involves unethically, perhaps illegally, acquired artifacts. Looting is looting, even when done with a metal detector on a riverbank.
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2009
- Messages
- 15
usually people that have to resort to trivial grammar corrections of others are losing the battle of the discussion at hand. I say keep digging and collecting for ALL.
I was not going to post here again, as this thread is such an embarrassment, but...
How can you say this? I wrote a response to pipeman's twaddle, and he was forced to resort to calling me out as the grammar police precisely because he was losing the argument, not because he was winning. He had no cogent response, ipso facto, he resorts to name calling, and in the hopes that he will have some people jump in on his side of the argument. And, lo and behold, you step in and accuse me of losing the argument? How so? Where have I gone astray? You merely assert that people everyone should go about digging and collecting. This, of course, leads to the destruction of archaeological sites. Got a metal detector? A riverbank? Why not dig up what you find, after all, the river already washed part of the artifacts away and farmers had struck the site with plows. Obviously, nothing is to be learned.
It is that very same attitude that has resulted in the destruction of countless sites, historic and prehistoric.
This thread should be removed. It is a disgrace.
In fact it was you who was name calling and accusing people of illegal acts.............
I was NOT losing the argument. Who exactly do you think you are coming in here and demanding that we listen to YOUR twaddle and that the thread should be closed???????
There are literally thousands of farmers here in Canada who have been SAVING artifacts found in their fields, would you have them locked up or would you simply critique their grammer too???????? Now please, keep your promise of not responding to this """""embarrassing thread""""""".........
I was NOT losing the argument. Who exactly do you think you are coming in here and demanding that we listen to YOUR twaddle and that the thread should be closed???????
There are literally thousands of farmers here in Canada who have been SAVING artifacts found in their fields, would you have them locked up or would you simply critique their grammer too???????? Now please, keep your promise of not responding to this """""embarrassing thread""""""".........
Heres a website that may have some information about this axe and how to preserve it. http://furtradetomahawks.tripod.com and their forum site is www.indiantradecollectors.com
I've worked in the archaeological field for many years and the fact is they simply don't have the money or resources or time to dig a trench on every square foot of earth that may have an artifact on it in all of North America. So it makes much more sense that SOMEBODY does it in a responsible and legal way than to leave it to turn to dust for future generations to mull over. I applaud the digger.
I've worked in the archaeological field for many years and the fact is they simply don't have the money or resources or time to dig a trench on every square foot of earth that may have an artifact on it in all of North America. So it makes much more sense that SOMEBODY does it in a responsible and legal way than to leave it to turn to dust for future generations to mull over. I applaud the digger.
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- Joined
- Sep 4, 2005
- Messages
- 1,982
Agreed. I too have a background in archaeology. Simply put, an artifact taken from an eroding riverbank beside a plowed field has little to no context or provenience. If it was in situ (in place) and associated with something (structure, midden, hearth etc.) it would be useful in describing and dating the site. As well, the entire site (if it is one) is most likely at the bottom of the river anyway. It sounds like the OP has taken steps to have it identified and assesed. Personally, I would leave it as is but that isn't my call. Flapping your arms and screaming "looter!" over a common trade ax is a bit foolish.
I was once in Canada with metal detector and found a whole bunch of Indian artifacts along a stream in one of those large national parks. It nearly filled my backpack. I brought them home to the USA and sold them for a fortune on e-bay. All I bothered to document was the deposits of fat cash into my bank account. I hope some fartingdickface doesn't turn me in to interpol
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2009
- Messages
- 15
I have to wonder if you saw the pics before the poster removed them. There was a lot more showed in them than a common trade ax. if he was so confident about his finds and his ethics, to say nothing of the legality of his finds, why did he remove the pics? I also have to wonder about your background in archaeology. Where did you do your digs? With whom? Do you have BA, MA, or PhD? The things you say tend to indicate you have a very limited background. E.g., that the looter has taken provenience, when, in fact, all he did was note the location of the find, not the actual provenience to other artifacts. To say nothing of the issues surrounding plowed fields or riverbanks/beds, both of which are often good indicators of larger sites--to say nothing about the information that can be gleaned from plowed fields. Your ethics seems somewhat misplaced as well.
As far as the gentleman who dug artifacts in Canada and returned them to the US to sell them om ebay, what can I say. You destroyed archaeological information and made a buck off it. Way to go, buddy, way to go.
Esav Benyamin
MidniteSuperMod
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2000
- Messages
- 90,915
Interesting discussion. Too bad the interpersonal distracts from the topical. Let's put an end to that.
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2006
- Messages
- 7,038
Wow, this sure got silly\hot for no reason, anyway. Thanks for the back up guys. I am not here to defend myself against one extremist, but to share our mutual interest in hawks. About the only thing that I feel bad about here was posting when tired and not running Spell check. 
I stand on what I said earlier about being on private land with permission. And, I am lucky to have found what I did over the summer because the river bank is eroding at an alarming rate in this location. The belt axe was actually found 3\4 to a mile from an established post. With other relics found along a river hugging trail moving away from a post to a small feeder river, used by natives to come down and trade. I KNOW that much was lost because I would make a find here and there on the extreme lip of the bank, which slumps down in massive chunks. I have never been on the actual post site as it is fenced off and my ethical values in regard to metal detecting would never allow me to touch that spot. I have private land owner permission up and down both side of the river bank. Actually, the original post is approx. 85% long gone. I believe that there were three separate investigations by archaeologists over time, culminating in a formal grided dig in the 60's by the local university I believe. There is a book published about this dig. Since the turn of the century the river bank has eroded approx. 100 feet. Even in the professional\formal exacting 60's work, griding, screening, surveying on and on very little was found in regard to foundation or chimney heaps. It was long gone into the river. So, as a metal detectorist who's only interest in these relics is the shear fascination of history (and saving it from loss\destruction), I feel zero shame about saving relics that will and have disappeared forever into a major river. Instead of chewing my butt off I feel that I should be allowed a modicum of respect for actually CARING about relic loss and preservation. No I am not an archaeologist but I am in touch with many trained in the field, that help me to save relics and be an ethical collector. The simple fact whether you like it or not Badass is that we are it. Ethical detectorists are the modern saviours of many historical relics. There is simply no time or money regionally to save many sites that are disappearing. So I put it to you this way. Would you prefer to have ethical metal detectorists saving relics from loss\destruction, preserving them, documenting were\when found, and discussing these finds with people trained in the field. Or would you rather have relics disappear as a total loss forever? I find the use of the term ''looter'' to be a repulsive dichotomy considering that my motivation is the preservation of history and I have NEVER sold or been inclined to sell a single item. This is the last I will say to defend myself, as I feel that I shouldn't have to. Here is the belt axe after electrolysis, brass wire scrubbing, oven baking and the use of conservators wax. It is not perfect but 1000% better than when it came out of the ground and soon into the river. Another piece of history saved from permanent loss.
I stand on what I said earlier about being on private land with permission. And, I am lucky to have found what I did over the summer because the river bank is eroding at an alarming rate in this location. The belt axe was actually found 3\4 to a mile from an established post. With other relics found along a river hugging trail moving away from a post to a small feeder river, used by natives to come down and trade. I KNOW that much was lost because I would make a find here and there on the extreme lip of the bank, which slumps down in massive chunks. I have never been on the actual post site as it is fenced off and my ethical values in regard to metal detecting would never allow me to touch that spot. I have private land owner permission up and down both side of the river bank. Actually, the original post is approx. 85% long gone. I believe that there were three separate investigations by archaeologists over time, culminating in a formal grided dig in the 60's by the local university I believe. There is a book published about this dig. Since the turn of the century the river bank has eroded approx. 100 feet. Even in the professional\formal exacting 60's work, griding, screening, surveying on and on very little was found in regard to foundation or chimney heaps. It was long gone into the river. So, as a metal detectorist who's only interest in these relics is the shear fascination of history (and saving it from loss\destruction), I feel zero shame about saving relics that will and have disappeared forever into a major river. Instead of chewing my butt off I feel that I should be allowed a modicum of respect for actually CARING about relic loss and preservation. No I am not an archaeologist but I am in touch with many trained in the field, that help me to save relics and be an ethical collector. The simple fact whether you like it or not Badass is that we are it. Ethical detectorists are the modern saviours of many historical relics. There is simply no time or money regionally to save many sites that are disappearing. So I put it to you this way. Would you prefer to have ethical metal detectorists saving relics from loss\destruction, preserving them, documenting were\when found, and discussing these finds with people trained in the field. Or would you rather have relics disappear as a total loss forever? I find the use of the term ''looter'' to be a repulsive dichotomy considering that my motivation is the preservation of history and I have NEVER sold or been inclined to sell a single item. This is the last I will say to defend myself, as I feel that I shouldn't have to. Here is the belt axe after electrolysis, brass wire scrubbing, oven baking and the use of conservators wax. It is not perfect but 1000% better than when it came out of the ground and soon into the river. Another piece of history saved from permanent loss.
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Upnorth
I'm glad you came back and reposted the pictures of the piece you Saved. The bottom line is, museums do Not have the money to do digs and thus save pieces like this. If in fact it was found on a museum dig site it would have been stored in a basement and never seen by those of us who appreciate our material history. Thanks again for reposting this piece.
Very best regards
Robin
I'm glad you came back and reposted the pictures of the piece you Saved. The bottom line is, museums do Not have the money to do digs and thus save pieces like this. If in fact it was found on a museum dig site it would have been stored in a basement and never seen by those of us who appreciate our material history. Thanks again for reposting this piece.
Very best regards
Robin