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Preserving the Edge...
- Thread starter Eliashan
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
In Inayan Kadena de Mano, all of our basic parrying and passing is done with the free hand. If we go blade to blade, it is because we didn't have proper technique, or enough time to deal with the attack correctly. If one had enough time to worry about parrying with the flat as opposed to the edge, he may have time enough to evade or pary with the live hand. But it is just one of those things to which there is not correct answer. If you have to parry with your blade, which is undesirable, it would be better to parry with the flat, if you have time, but it is better to live than to preserve the edge of your knife.
Hi Eliashan:
I think a lot of FMAs don't even consider this for several reasons:
#1 Most do very little actual training with a blade long enough to even consider parrying with. The stick has replaced the blade in most instances.
#2 The main tactic is to cut to the attacking limb whenever possible, so parrying with the blade would only happen as a "failsafe."
#3 The WMAs use a "point on" approach. This makes blade parrys very feasible and very workable. However, the FMAs use more of an "edge on" approach and do not usually use the length of the weapon for distancing. If you are holding your weapon close to you rather than extended, then blade parrys are not as feasible....direct cuts to the attacking limb are a better tactic.
Keith
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"Walk softly and carry a big stick!"
Teddy Roosevelt
I think a lot of FMAs don't even consider this for several reasons:
#1 Most do very little actual training with a blade long enough to even consider parrying with. The stick has replaced the blade in most instances.
#2 The main tactic is to cut to the attacking limb whenever possible, so parrying with the blade would only happen as a "failsafe."
#3 The WMAs use a "point on" approach. This makes blade parrys very feasible and very workable. However, the FMAs use more of an "edge on" approach and do not usually use the length of the weapon for distancing. If you are holding your weapon close to you rather than extended, then blade parrys are not as feasible....direct cuts to the attacking limb are a better tactic.
Keith
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"Walk softly and carry a big stick!"
Teddy Roosevelt
Interesting.
A lack of blade on blade would be pretty obvious with short blades of course.
I've heard that the FMA's which still preserve alot tradition for the longer blades, as opposed to sticks, teach this.
A description of the "four walls" technique of deflecting with the stick rather than blocking, is alot like what I"ve heard should be done to preserve the edge and for effeciency.
Oh, BTW, I wouldn't call the WMA point on. That's rapier and later. There is also a rich heritage of cutting weapons, like the longsword, where edge work is more empahsized.
Somethng that is also common in the western arts, is a deflecting strike. You strike at your opponents oncoming blow to deflect it (your edge usually hits their flat or at least their edge at an angle that causes the blades to glide, rather than a direct block) and hopefully hit him at the same time. Anything like this taught in FMA?
A lack of blade on blade would be pretty obvious with short blades of course.
I've heard that the FMA's which still preserve alot tradition for the longer blades, as opposed to sticks, teach this.
A description of the "four walls" technique of deflecting with the stick rather than blocking, is alot like what I"ve heard should be done to preserve the edge and for effeciency.
Oh, BTW, I wouldn't call the WMA point on. That's rapier and later. There is also a rich heritage of cutting weapons, like the longsword, where edge work is more empahsized.
Somethng that is also common in the western arts, is a deflecting strike. You strike at your opponents oncoming blow to deflect it (your edge usually hits their flat or at least their edge at an angle that causes the blades to glide, rather than a direct block) and hopefully hit him at the same time. Anything like this taught in FMA?
You are right. I think some of the FMA systems that are classified more as "traditional Kali" have retained more long blade/sword awareness and know not to parry with the edge. Kali Illustrisimo comes to mind. The "4 walls" method of blocking does resemble some of the guards utilized with the western 2-handed sword. And FMAs definitely use deflecting parrys/strikes intended to slide up the length of the opponents weapon and strike the hand. As far as a "point" emphasis, it is my impression that the Cut & Thrust methods that preceded the rapier had a point emphasis. These evolved from the medieval short-sword (one hander), and so the point emphasis was there earlier than you stated. Even the battlefield use of the bidenhander had something of a point emphasis in the guards utilized. I'm not referring to only looking to do thrusts, but rather the way in which the weapon was used to maintain range and distance. FMAs do not typically do this. My background is in FMAs, but I have been actively trying to learn more about WMAs. I've been exploring the use of the singlestick and "great stick" (4 footer). I know Panantukan, which is basically a mix of modern boxing and filipino empty-hand methods, but am also researching the old bare-knuckle boxing. Do you currently study/practice a WMA? Contact me by eMail if you want to talk. 
Keith
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"Walk softly and carry a big stick!"
Teddy Roosevelt
Keith
------------------
"Walk softly and carry a big stick!"
Teddy Roosevelt
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2000
- Messages
- 81
Eliashan,
In Kali Illustrisimo, we are taught to deflect the blade with the flat of the blade. Whether you're using Estrella, Crusada, or Verticale techniques. There's less drag with the flat-to-edge deflection block. Plus, you're preserving the edge. Hope that helps. Mabuhay ESKRIMA!
Adrian
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"No matter how deadly you may be, you must contain your art within the sphere of good motives against a background of peaceful intentions."
G.M. Ramiro U. Estalilla
In Kali Illustrisimo, we are taught to deflect the blade with the flat of the blade. Whether you're using Estrella, Crusada, or Verticale techniques. There's less drag with the flat-to-edge deflection block. Plus, you're preserving the edge. Hope that helps. Mabuhay ESKRIMA!
Adrian
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"No matter how deadly you may be, you must contain your art within the sphere of good motives against a background of peaceful intentions."
G.M. Ramiro U. Estalilla
Yeah, I think I remember you from the Western Arts list now. I mostly lurk, but I'm signed up.
What's a cut and what's a rapier? *S* Kind of a problem there..by the time the masters are teaching to thrust in preference to the cut I'm inclined to call it a rapier.
I study Medieval swordsmanship. Mainly thorugh the Germanic masters, Flos Duellotorum, and Silver. Silver's shortsword manual was written in 1599, but I'm inclined to agree with Terry Brown that his technique preserves something of the older method. I find that Blossfechten (unarmored fighting) one tends to use no more than 50% thrusts.
Armored fighting though, the cut becomes less usefull, one tends to grab the blade and use it like a short lance, to seek the joints in armor with the point.
Well, thats enough rambling for now.
M. Bailey
What's a cut and what's a rapier? *S* Kind of a problem there..by the time the masters are teaching to thrust in preference to the cut I'm inclined to call it a rapier.
I study Medieval swordsmanship. Mainly thorugh the Germanic masters, Flos Duellotorum, and Silver. Silver's shortsword manual was written in 1599, but I'm inclined to agree with Terry Brown that his technique preserves something of the older method. I find that Blossfechten (unarmored fighting) one tends to use no more than 50% thrusts.
Armored fighting though, the cut becomes less usefull, one tends to grab the blade and use it like a short lance, to seek the joints in armor with the point.
Well, thats enough rambling for now.
M. Bailey
What do you use as your source material? I have Terry Brown's book on order, but its on the slow boat from England. I've been drawing on Hutton's works a lot for using the sticks. Do you hook up with the HACA guys in Houston?
Keith
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"Walk softly and carry a big stick!"
Teddy Roosevelt
Keith
------------------
"Walk softly and carry a big stick!"
Teddy Roosevelt
- Joined
- Feb 11, 1999
- Messages
- 568
I was thinking about this and doing some experimenting this past weekend, and here's what I've come up with. I'd be interested in knowing what those of you with more blade experience think of it. Where's Gaucho btw, I'd like to get his feed back too?
I got one of the other students to "play" our lower & upper tapping drills with me, using a training sword, and I payed specific attention to which part of the blade I was using for blocks. I found several instances where I was using the spine of my sword, not to block so much as to intercept and redirect various cutting and thrusting attacks. When combined with proper foot work and shifting, I was able to use the spine pretty effectively. I found that I could use our thrusting motions to interecept attacks with the spine of my sword and when I carried the thrust all the way through to the corresponding chamber position, that I had opportunity for controls and disarms. Another thing that I found was that I was able to use witiks (fanning) to deflect cutting & thrusting attacks with the flat of my blade. The witik motion seemed to frequently leave me in position for a quick cut on his weapon arm. The deflections using our thrusting motions and the spine seemed to put me in closer with opportunities to deliver killing attacks to the body.
As a qualifier however, we were not playing at full speed nor we we deviating from the set drills into free flow. This was new ground for both of us, so we kept the speed down and stayed within the set drills so that I could pay attention to my blade and to maintain a safety factor.
Comments please.
Respectfully,
Dave
I got one of the other students to "play" our lower & upper tapping drills with me, using a training sword, and I payed specific attention to which part of the blade I was using for blocks. I found several instances where I was using the spine of my sword, not to block so much as to intercept and redirect various cutting and thrusting attacks. When combined with proper foot work and shifting, I was able to use the spine pretty effectively. I found that I could use our thrusting motions to interecept attacks with the spine of my sword and when I carried the thrust all the way through to the corresponding chamber position, that I had opportunity for controls and disarms. Another thing that I found was that I was able to use witiks (fanning) to deflect cutting & thrusting attacks with the flat of my blade. The witik motion seemed to frequently leave me in position for a quick cut on his weapon arm. The deflections using our thrusting motions and the spine seemed to put me in closer with opportunities to deliver killing attacks to the body.
As a qualifier however, we were not playing at full speed nor we we deviating from the set drills into free flow. This was new ground for both of us, so we kept the speed down and stayed within the set drills so that I could pay attention to my blade and to maintain a safety factor.
Comments please.
Respectfully,
Dave
Keith,
Well, I use mainly the historical masters books as my sources...cross reference with the Asian arts to a certain degree. I read Rennaisance Swordsmanship many a moon ago, but I've lost my copy since then. I've read Hutton's Cold Steel, fairly practical stuff, Old Swordplay has some Anachronisms though.
Never personally trained with HACA, though I'm planning on going to Houston for the Swordplay Symposium convention this may. (fingers crossed).
--Matt
[This message has been edited by Eliashan (edited 04-03-2000).]
Well, I use mainly the historical masters books as my sources...cross reference with the Asian arts to a certain degree. I read Rennaisance Swordsmanship many a moon ago, but I've lost my copy since then. I've read Hutton's Cold Steel, fairly practical stuff, Old Swordplay has some Anachronisms though.
Never personally trained with HACA, though I'm planning on going to Houston for the Swordplay Symposium convention this may. (fingers crossed).
--Matt
[This message has been edited by Eliashan (edited 04-03-2000).]
Dave: This sounds like some stuff out of Pallas Armata.
"If thine adversary doth make a blow at the inside of thy Sword, towards thy head, parere his blow towards thy left side downwards with a Secunde (hand palm down M.B) only turning thy wrist and thy point towards the left side, when thou hast parered his blow, then strike with a back blow, and a Secunde towards thy right side at the outside of his right arm,
"as soon as he maketh a blow at thy head without, then stepping in towards him, parere his blow with a Quarte (hand palm up) towards thy right side downwards, and having parered, strike instantly with the Quarte towards thy left side at the inside of his right arm,"
--Matt B.
"If thine adversary doth make a blow at the inside of thy Sword, towards thy head, parere his blow towards thy left side downwards with a Secunde (hand palm down M.B) only turning thy wrist and thy point towards the left side, when thou hast parered his blow, then strike with a back blow, and a Secunde towards thy right side at the outside of his right arm,
"as soon as he maketh a blow at thy head without, then stepping in towards him, parere his blow with a Quarte (hand palm up) towards thy right side downwards, and having parered, strike instantly with the Quarte towards thy left side at the inside of his right arm,"
--Matt B.
Most certainly. I sometimes perform what look like parries to the observer, but are really attempted cuts at the wrists.
Once your blade gets to be about a foot long or longer, I find that some beats and parries do become appropriate, esp. if you have a protective/trapping guard.
Once your blade gets to be about a foot long or longer, I find that some beats and parries do become appropriate, esp. if you have a protective/trapping guard.
Hi Guys! How are you all?
Dave, how did your double knife sparring go? What did you learn?
Keith, did you have a chance to train with Sing when he was down in DC? How is your bowie study group coming along?
Jason, how are things in your neck of the woods?
Eliashan, nice to meet you!
Each of you has brought up good points as usual. All of you are correct in that your goal should always be to counterattack the opponent's blade arm or body rather than to parry his blade- regardless of the length of your blade(assuming, of course, that he doesn't have a sword and you a small fighter, making an initial counterattack to his sword arm nearly impossible to achieve).
As Eliashan said, in sword fighting what often looks like a parry to the opponent's sword is actually an attack to his sword arm. Parrying the opponent's blade is a fall back if you don't have time to simply evade and attack him. If you simply have to parry his blade, do it with the flat or spine of yours to protect your edge and maybe damage his.
Longer blades- greater than 12" or so- facilitate parrying and point work. Parries are much harder to do with a shorter blade. With a shorter blade, you are much better off using witiks with the spine or flat.
I recently reread 'Renaissance Swordsmanship' by Clement, and it has really kindled my interest in historical rapier and Cut and Thrust and dagger fighting. In fact, I just ordered a two port cross hilt rapier with full weight live rapier blade and matching dagger from Darkwood Armoury. Scott at Darkwood is an experienced Espada y Daga player as well as a rapier and cut and thrust swordsman. His advice was invaluable. Apparently the two port cross hilt with forward curved quillions will feel very maneuverable and familiar, allow me to use the rapier in either hand, and also as a Cut and Thrust sword(since Scott is going to sharpen the edges as well as the tip for me
). Once I have my training partner situation worked out for this little adventure, I will get bated(unsharpened, blunted) blades for the rapier and the dagger- the two weapons are dismountable- to use in sparring.
I'm really looking forward to exploring the rapier with its quick thrusting ability, and to see how I fare with it against Espada stylists as well.
Mario
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Gaucho
Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.
Dave, how did your double knife sparring go? What did you learn?
Keith, did you have a chance to train with Sing when he was down in DC? How is your bowie study group coming along?
Jason, how are things in your neck of the woods?
Eliashan, nice to meet you!
Each of you has brought up good points as usual. All of you are correct in that your goal should always be to counterattack the opponent's blade arm or body rather than to parry his blade- regardless of the length of your blade(assuming, of course, that he doesn't have a sword and you a small fighter, making an initial counterattack to his sword arm nearly impossible to achieve).
As Eliashan said, in sword fighting what often looks like a parry to the opponent's sword is actually an attack to his sword arm. Parrying the opponent's blade is a fall back if you don't have time to simply evade and attack him. If you simply have to parry his blade, do it with the flat or spine of yours to protect your edge and maybe damage his.
Longer blades- greater than 12" or so- facilitate parrying and point work. Parries are much harder to do with a shorter blade. With a shorter blade, you are much better off using witiks with the spine or flat.
I recently reread 'Renaissance Swordsmanship' by Clement, and it has really kindled my interest in historical rapier and Cut and Thrust and dagger fighting. In fact, I just ordered a two port cross hilt rapier with full weight live rapier blade and matching dagger from Darkwood Armoury. Scott at Darkwood is an experienced Espada y Daga player as well as a rapier and cut and thrust swordsman. His advice was invaluable. Apparently the two port cross hilt with forward curved quillions will feel very maneuverable and familiar, allow me to use the rapier in either hand, and also as a Cut and Thrust sword(since Scott is going to sharpen the edges as well as the tip for me
I'm really looking forward to exploring the rapier with its quick thrusting ability, and to see how I fare with it against Espada stylists as well.
Mario
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Gaucho
Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.
- Joined
- Feb 11, 1999
- Messages
- 568
Hey Gaucho!
I finally got a chance to try it last weekend. Talk about a blast!
I definitely prefer what I'll call "mixed doubles" (ie one in hammer and one in reverse grip) for the versatility both in attack and defense. I tried "double hammer" and "double reverse" as well, but definitely prefer "mixed doubles". It was like we were saying, you have the quick, precise attacks and extra reach of the hammer grip, as well as the power shots and hooks of the reverse grip.
I only got to fight one guy with it though I plan on changing that asap. In fact the guy I fought is considerably bigger and more advanced than I am and usually dictates the flow of our fights. This time, however, I was able to dictate the fight and to pick 'n choose.
Thanks for asking!
Dave.
Hey Mario!
I didn't get a chance to meet up with Sing. They worked him harder than he expected while he was here in D.C. We're hoping to get together on future trips. The first get-together of the Bowie study group is this weekend. Five friends have committed to being there. I'm anticipating a good time. Please keep us informed on how your training with the rapier goes. I have been working on methods with the western singlestick and the "great stick" which uses two-handed sword methods. Fun stuff! I'm betting we are going to see more and more renewed interest in western martial arts. Got Pete Kautz's book yesterday. Looks pretty good. I'm sure I'll be working its methods into our training.
Keith
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"Walk softly and carry a big stick!"
Teddy Roosevelt
I didn't get a chance to meet up with Sing. They worked him harder than he expected while he was here in D.C.
We're hoping to get together on future trips. The first get-together of the Bowie study group is this weekend. Five friends have committed to being there. I'm anticipating a good time. Please keep us informed on how your training with the rapier goes. I have been working on methods with the western singlestick and the "great stick" which uses two-handed sword methods. Fun stuff! I'm betting we are going to see more and more renewed interest in western martial arts. Got Pete Kautz's book yesterday. Looks pretty good. I'm sure I'll be working its methods into our training.Keith
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"Walk softly and carry a big stick!"
Teddy Roosevelt
Mario:
Well met. I've read some of your post on Argentine fighting arts, and found them most interesting.
Much as I respect John Clements, his Rennaisance Swordsmanship just does not give enough information on the use of the rapier, though the Cut and thrust section is better. Two good sources for rapier can both be found onlne at www.thehaca.com-Stephen Hand's Practical Saviolo, and Pallas Armata, which is written in fairly plain English.
Clements Medieval Swordsmanship is a much better book too, if your interest leans more toward greatswords and sword&shield.
--Matt
P.S What are "witiks"?
Well met. I've read some of your post on Argentine fighting arts, and found them most interesting.
Much as I respect John Clements, his Rennaisance Swordsmanship just does not give enough information on the use of the rapier, though the Cut and thrust section is better. Two good sources for rapier can both be found onlne at www.thehaca.com-Stephen Hand's Practical Saviolo, and Pallas Armata, which is written in fairly plain English.
Clements Medieval Swordsmanship is a much better book too, if your interest leans more toward greatswords and sword&shield.
--Matt
P.S What are "witiks"?
Eliashan,
Greetings!
Thank you. I have already pulled those two references as well as some others off the HACA site and am in the process of sifting through everything now.
You wouldn't happen to know anyone in the Boston area who is into rapier and/or C&T swordsmanship who might be interested in a new training partner would you? I'd naturally be willing to teach them what I know of the blade arts in exchange.
Mario
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Gaucho
Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.
Greetings!
Thank you. I have already pulled those two references as well as some others off the HACA site and am in the process of sifting through everything now.
You wouldn't happen to know anyone in the Boston area who is into rapier and/or C&T swordsmanship who might be interested in a new training partner would you? I'd naturally be willing to teach them what I know of the blade arts in exchange.
Mario
------------------
Gaucho
Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.