pressure points for heavy blood loss

[LSkylizard]

I see that the maturity level here hasn't changed much in my absence.

Whatever:

...You are the individual that has chosen to run down a bunch of unrelated bunny trails. The Orthopedic Surgical TQ, or some such BS.
Rather than attempting to dazzle us all with your vast medical knowledge, why not simply answer the man's questions in a polite, direct manner?

...you are such the highroad man with your comments...bunny trails and all.

...I think the otherside/perspective is now published...

 

[Brommeland]

Using the term "whatever" indicates to me a fundamental inability to clearly articulate a position.

In reviewing some of your posts, you seem to have a problem with most everyone, so I'm not gonna take this personally. Nor am I going to waste any more time in jousting with you.
I simply wanted to answer Cliff's questions, and I have done so. I am through here.

 

[LSkylizard]

...chosen to run down a bunch of unrelated bunny trails. The Orthopedic Surgical TQ, or some such BS...

..."They (the doctors) had a real bias against them (TQs)."
Two studies were key in changing attitudes about tourniquets when both came to the same conclusion: Seven to 10 percent of battlefield deaths in Vietnam and Somalia were caused by profusely bleeding arm or leg wounds, and if a tourniquet had been used, the servicemember would most likely have lived.
"This realization resulted in a real shift in people's attitudes, so they decided tourniquets weren't a bad thing at all and, in fact, everyone should have one and be taught to use it," Walters said.
In Vietnam 2500 casualties died on the battlefield because they bled to death, and the only wounds these soldiers had were extremity wounds…

The myth from medical training in the past says that once a tourniquet is applied, the soldier is going to lose his limb. In reality, tourniquets can be left on for several hours without permanent damage being done. Thousands of orthopedic surgeries are performed every day with tourniquets left in place for up to two hours without limb damage or loss. However, the longer the tourniquet is left in place the more potential damage that will ensue. If a limb with a tourniquet applied is kept cool, but not allowed to freeze, it extends the time a tourniquet can be left in place substantially...

Just to point out that the parallel/comparison was made by others long before I ever posted. You can easily obtain much of the information through a simple net search if so desired. It is not about my "vast medical knowledge". And, yes, whatever.... It is a sign that I find it useless at this point to try and debate/discuss/argue with someone unable to understand a clearly articulated position.

 

[LSkylizard]

...I simply wanted to answer Cliff's questions...

My question was two fold :

-how to address the need for more severe measures that direct pressure + elevation

-what to do when they are applied, long term with no rescue possible

And lastly how come a tourniquet can't be used similar to pressure points to reduce blood flow and not simply shut it on/off?

I believe that has been done...at least I hope so.

...There's a picture of one pressure point at the cert site under the title :disaster medical operation 1.
http://training.fema.gov/emiweb/CERT/mtrls.asp

...With a tourniquet, you stop all flow entering and leaving the affected area. If you need to apply one...put it as close to the wound as possible and write down the time that it was started. Preferably write on the leg or arm itself in Sharpie...

...As I understand it, you hold pressure or use a "pressure dressing" on a wound when there is a reasonable expectation that the wound will clot and that the bleeding will stop long before the patient is in danger of dying. OTOH, a tourniquet is applied when there is no expectation that the wound will clot and a belief that the bleeding will not stop with pressure alone...

With massive blood loss, don't forget to also check for and likely treat for shock...Remember, shock kills.

Bear in mind that when you apply pressure to a major vessel to reduce bleeding, you aren't constricting other, smaller blood vessels, thus allowing blood supply to tissue in the affected area and "below", whereas a tourniquet constricts all vessels in the affected limb, shutting off total blood supply...

...The difference is one of "real estate". A TQ cuts off a whole lot of it while PP will specifically isolate a region (in general). Ideally, the pressure point will be distal enough to allow other collateral vessels to branch. This means uninjured vessels are free to perfuse the limb while you compress the injured vessel. A TQ compresses all vessels distal to it as it is circumferential and functions in a strangulating fashion...

...wound healing takes time!...you do not apply a minimal TQ to allow enough hemorrhage control for the wound to “heal”. The ischemia induced by low blood flow is counterproductive to healing. Second, TQ applies global pressure. It will require enough pressure to tamponade the injured vessels. By coincidence, this is generally the exact amount of pressure required to stop the healthy vessels from perfusing...

...The military now issues new, high speed, quality TQs. Again, only to be used in a properly trained fashion...

...Amputation is generally the result of not having the resources for definitive care available...not the result of a properly placed TQ.. A properly placed TQ used under appropriate circumstances saves lives and actually helps save a limb by default...

If you really want to have TQs at your disposal for first responder treatment, you need something with capabilities (similar/equal) to the The Special Operations Forces Tactical Tourniquet (SOFTT). So, get the training and have the right equipment to employ your training. The first step in saving lives is proper planning with proper preparation and gear..

A proper FIELD TQ device, applied by a properly trained individual, under proper circumstances/indications is not a detriment to the limb and provides greater chance of life and limb salvage.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=371879

 

[Brian Jones]

We need less EGO and more INFO in the wilderness forum. Things have turned way too petty lately.

Thread is exhausted, time to close shop on this topic.