Preventing Rust Inside Axe Eye

A single pin, as is traditional, is actually best because catastrophic force allows the tang to pivot and crush the wood while a two-pin system creates a splitting effect on the wood, and the total damage is greater. My understanding is the pin is mostly a failsafe rather than the primary means of retention--the primary means is the tight fit of the wood itself. In terms of deliberately encouraging rusting I would only imagine that was done on fresh bare metal to force a patina--nothing beyond that.

At any rate, there's no need to worry about the inside of an axe eye. Any rust that occurs inside the eye of a hafted axe won't cause appreciable wear on the tool. I think we can at least agree that the formation of light rust isn't going to make the fit any looser.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
My understanding is the pin is mostly a failsafe rather than the primary means of retention--the primary means is the tight fit of the wood itself...
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I can assure you that this is quite the opposite when talking about traditionally made japanese sword, as an exemple, during the satsuma rebellion they rushed the manufacturing of crudly assembled blade to help equip the troops as quickly as possible, to speed things up they often mounted blades with no pin on the side and instead used urushi lacquer to glue the blade inside the tsuka. Based on your logic, there would be no need for lacquer acting as glue.
 
Remzy said:
I can assure you that this is quite the opposite when talking about traditionally made japanese sword, as an exemple, during the satsuma rebellion they rushed the manufacturing of crudly assembled blade to help equip the troops as quickly as possible, to speed things up they often mounted blades with no pin on the side and instead used urushi lacquer to glue the blade inside the tsuka. Based on your logic, there would be no need for lacquer acting as glue.
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In rushed production you'd have a sloppier fit of the wood due to less precise carving...what you're describing is similar to an axe manufacturer switching from wedged construction to epoxied construction to speed up manufacturing. Citation.

At any rate, it does seem to be a bit of a debated issue. My personal interpretation of the varying information is that a mekugi is almost like a roll pin in an axe. It's there to keep the head in place in the event of any loosening of the primary fit that's supposed to do the bulk of the retention work, but you wouldn't want to use a tool that was primarily secured by the pin because slop in the other components would lead to damage over time and possibly result in catastrophic failure.
 
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It seems to me that I've never seen anything about old timers worrying about rust inside the eye. I've never seen any evidence in an old axe of any steps taken to prevent it either. Pretty much ever old axe head I've ever seen had light to medium surface rust inside the eye. Rarely is the eye pitted up unless it has clearly been buried etc. If you do a careful job of hanging your axe with a very dry handle and wedge, the wood is going to protect the steel from heavy rust. It seems logical that the rust might increase the mechanical bond, but it seems likely the effect is minimal. If you really want to prevent an axe from rusting, place your axe in an oxygen free environment.
 
Oxbow said:
It seems to me that I've never seen anything about old timers worrying about rust inside the eye. I've never seen any evidence in an old axe of any steps taken to prevent it either. Pretty much ever old axe head I've ever seen had light to medium surface rust inside the eye. Rarely is the eye pitted up unless it has clearly been buried etc. If you do a careful job of hanging your axe with a very dry handle and wedge, the wood is going to protect the steel from heavy rust. It seems logical that the rust might increase the mechanical bond, but it seems likely the effect is minimal. If you really want to prevent an axe from rusting, place your axe in an oxygen free environment.
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Space Axe™!--buy yours today! :D :D :D
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
In rushed production you'd have a sloppier fit of the wood due to less precise carving...what you're describing is similar to an axe manufacturer switching from wedged construction to epoxied construction to speed up manufacturing. Citation.

At any rate, it does seem to be a bit of a debated issue. ...
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I do own one of these so called Satsuma rebellion mount and i can assure you that the fit inside the tsuka is pretty tight and urushi cannot be used as epoxy as it is very thin (unless apllied in multiple layers, which you cant do inside of a tsuka if you wish to rush production), they might have rushed them but it was not because they used shoddy craftmanship, the simply skipped steps in the production, you are still talking about japanese craftmanship here.

As for the debate, I am not really debating, afaik, the mekugi was always used to retain the blade in conjoncture with the pressure it applies on the Habaki, seppas, tsuba and the tip of the tsuka, as the mekugi is tappered and act as a wedge along with a pin. You have the choice to say that rust is a retaining agent in the whole assembly, but you would be wrong regarding nihontos. You do not have to take my word for it, you could do a search for a certain nihonto enthusiasts message board and ask around.

As for the rust in the eye, it think it is a modern craze to buff and shine everything thinking that it is a good thing, but buffing and shinning the inside of the axe would be taking it too far in my opinion! unless you make a golden axe without a handle for display only... hum, that would be cool, if quite unusable.
 
Remzy said:
I do own one of these so called Satsuma rebellion mount and i can assure you that the fit inside the tsuka is pretty tight and urushi cannot be used as epoxy as it is very thin (unless apllied in multiple layers, which you cant do inside of a tsuka if you wish to rush production), they might have rushed them but it was not because they used shoddy craftmanship, the simply skipped steps in the production, you are still talking about japanese craftmanship here.

As for the debate, I am not really debating, afaik, the mekugi was always used to retain the blade in conjoncture with the pressure it applies on the Habaki, seppas, tsuba and the tip of the tsuka, as the mekugi is tappered and act as a wedge along with a pin. You have the choice to say that rust is a retaining agent in the whole assembly, but you would be wrong regarding nihontos. You do not have to take my word for it, you could do a search for a certain nihonto enthusiasts message board and ask around.

As for the rust in the eye, it think it is a modern craze to buff and shine everything thinking that it is a good thing, but buffing and shinning the inside of the axe would be taking it too far in my opinion! unless you make a golden axe without a handle for display only... hum, that would be cool, if quite unusable.
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This is all wandering pretty far from my original point. My only reason for mentioning it in the first place was as an example that rust inside of a wood-to-metal mechanical/friction bond would not detract from its function. My source for the anecdote was called into question, so I linked to a few notable individuals presenting the argument. However, do I think that rust was or should be used as a primary means of retaining a blade or tool head? Absolutely not. All I'm saying is that it sure doesn't harm anything from a functional standpoint and it doesn't need to be actively discouraged.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
. . . rust inside of a wood-to-metal mechanical/friction bond would not detract from its function. . . ..
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I also don't think the head posted by the OP has enough rust to be unfunctionable.

But I can't picture a "bond" between rusty/rusting metal and wood. Seems to me a rusting eye is loosing metal. As the metal goes away the friction goes away.

RUST From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust:
"Given sufficient time, oxygen, and water, any iron mass will eventually convert entirely to rust and disintegrate. Surface rust is flaky and friable, and it provides no protection to the underlying iron. . ."
 
It occupies a much higher volume of space than the iron it converts, so it increases the pressure between the head and the wood. It's friction force, not glue.
 
29 posts??? Has rust in the eye of an axe really ever been an issue with anyone here...Prior to the question being asked by the OP?

In my 45+ years working with and collecting logging tools I have never had this issue even mentioned.

I'm with Oxbow...

Quote Originally Posted by Oxbow
"It seems to me that I've never seen anything about old timers worrying about rust inside the eye. I've never seen any evidence in an old axe of any steps taken to prevent it either. "...."If you really want to prevent an axe from rusting, place your axe in an oxygen free environment."

Tom

P.S. I agree with 42 about the friction fit of rust in the eye. Sometimes common sense trumps all.
 
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FortyTwoBlades said:
It occupies a much higher volume of space than the iron it converts, so it increases the pressure between the head and the wood. It's friction force, not glue.
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I don't think I explained my conundrum about rust inside an axe eye very well.

If I put an un-rusted head on a handle it is held on by the friction of the wood against the metal. Then if the metal converts to rust in the eye, expansion occurs. This force has to go somewhere. I would guess mostly against the wood which would compress it. Rust has virtually no strength and is very brittle. At this point there is a smaller amount of wood against a weaker and granular substance in the eye than before the rust formed. What I'm wrestling with is how friction is maintained in this situation.
 
rjdankert said:
i don't think i explained my conundrum about rust inside an axe eye very well.

If i put an un-rusted head on a handle it is held on by the friction of the wood against the metal. Then if the metal converts to rust in the eye, expansion occurs. This force has to go somewhere. I would guess mostly against the wood which would compress it. Rust has virtually no strength and is very brittle. At this point there is a smaller amount of wood against a weaker and granular substance in the eye than before the rust formed. what i'm wrestling with is how friction is maintained in this situation.
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You are over thinking this. If I was to follow your logic. All wood handled tools over the last 200+ years would have failed. I hope this doesn't keep you up at night.
When you resolve this...will you tell us which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Tom
 
:confused: Tom, I don't understand your reply. Hope you can help me out.

Double Ott said:
You are over thinking this. . .
. . .
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Where is the line between thinking and "over thinking"? How is this line decided?

Double Ott said:
. . .. If I was to follow your logic. All wood handled tools over the last 200+ years would have failed.
. . .
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I'm not sure how you used my "logic" to make such a broad statement. However, if your definition of failure includes a head requiring a new handle. . .

Double Ott said:
. . .. II hope this doesn't keep you up at night.
. . .
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Thank you. So far it hasn't. :)

Double Ott said:
. . .
When you resolve this...will you tell us which came first, the chicken or the egg?
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FortyTwoBlades has answered that.

Thanks
 
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