Price gouging...

I totally agree with you woodworkghost ,if a maker is getting old and realizes he only has a few more knives left why shouldn't he charge more for them. Buying
a custom knife is not like buying a mutal fund that you can expect a certain rate of return on. You really are buying a really nice hand tool and if it does what it is supposed to do, cut things. DE Henry was one of the firstcustom makers of our time and some people had problems with him jacking up the price for work ordered years before. But I think he was right ,why should someone get to buy a knife from him and turn around and sell it for 10 times as much. A good purveyor does not need to underpay a maker because they make their money on top of that price buy having stuff in stock(no 3 year wait) , knowing the market and the product and having a relationship with
knifemakers that a single collector would not. If you don't think a knife is worth the price don't buy it. I will never understand sebenzafever but they are "worth" that price because people are willing to pay it.
 
Hi Anthony,

That was only the second part of the equation.

The first part was collectors in the 80's with lots of money wanted interframe folders, with lots of engraving (almost without exception costing more than the knife). On occasion scrim and gold inlay.

The Japanese were buying these up like there was no tomorrow as the Yen was strong against the dollar. Prices in the aftermarket soared. Those who got in early and sold made money. Makers raised their prices, dealers raised their prices......then the Japanese Stock Market had its "correction".

One individual was given the job by the Japanese sellers to "sell their knives NOW". Consequently the knives were sold very cheap. Dealers (most of which are a foot note now) who were not paying attention to the current conditions of both the stock market and more importantly the custom knife market were like pigs at a trough. Thinking they would get these knives at a great price and still be able sell the knives at the greatly inflated prices.

What ensued was almost a total collapse of the presentation or "art" knife folder market. We lost a lot of big time collectors as they learned the lesson that others are doomed to repeat in the next 5 years.

The custom knife market took a huge hit. Big time buyers swearing they would never buy a folder again...until those $250 gray turds showed up.

What happened to all the big time buyers and the high dollar makers. Most left the scene preferring to deal with one or two of their favorite makers. These makers were still living the high life with their 2-3 buyers. Not realizing that once they had enough of their knives they would move on. Imagine trying to replace 1/3 or 1/2 of your salary in a short period of time.

Today the market has changed dramatically with the advent of the Internet.

That being said, there are sill those who see the naked Emperor and like all the others who see him speak of how great his new set of clothes are.

Flavors of the month are created and destroyed by this type of group think. Naked makers believe those who quest for their knives, embracing and enjoying all the adulation, being told by those who bought them cheap to raise their prices. Not fully understanding they were being used to make money for those savvy knife buyers. Being lifted to "legend" status...the hottest of the hottest. Only to find that when they cool off they have overpriced inventory to move and no one wants it.

The collectors who used group think to decide their purchases are now stuck with knives they paid an excessive premium for. Realizing for the first time they will never get their money out of the knife. But they rejoice to the sounds of the Forumites who tell them custom knives are not investments. You should buy what you like and not worry about the consequences of your actions.

Well that was a side road this tour was not scheduled to take.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

WWG

Made it through the 80's (when I did not sell a single folder), the 90's and now into the 21st Century. Wow Im becoming an old timer.
 
I do agree with Mr. Mayo's comment I look at some knives out there and think that's totally unrealistic asking price. IMO.

I not trying to jerk any knife maker around. I realize they have to make a living and pay for there costs and time.

I go the other way in my thinking. I have a price range in mind to spend with an upper limit. If the knife is out of the range, it's not to be considered move on.

If the prices of the knives is off balance or skewed the wrong way it can drive the buyer's away or just plain scare them off, then the knife market will suffer in the end.

It's pretty easy to see what the price of micarta, the woods, the steels and other items used to make knives. The time to design and make a knife and put there reputation on it, is completely open to the maker's perspective.

There are many versions of knife buyer's out there for sure. I have seen knives sell as fast as they are made and posted. On the other hand, you can see knives that are for sale and they sit there on sale for a long time.

It's a two way street that should go in the same direction. All is good when the knifemaker and customer are both happy!
 
implies taking advantage of with an element of swindle. I looked it up. When I started this thread, I used the word not knowing that and just thought it was the correct word to describe a quick and drastic price increase. My mistake. Anthony and others are absolutely right, it's not an accurate word for what we're talking about here.

Woodwork's post is a perfect historical example of what I was trying to say. I think certain segments of the industry are headed for a repeat if "bubble" mentality or "group think", etc....prevail. "Woodwork", how would you guess this could affect knife shows, internet sales, the industry in general if history repeats itself on a large scale?
 
I find this thread very informative and some of the points made indicative to my experiences. I am not of the "priveleged" category where money is of no concern regarding what I spend on a knife. I typically by knives up to about $500 - $600 as my upper limit. I have a collection including production and custom knives.

I live in CT and typically go to local shows mostly NCCA (Northeast Cutlery Collectors Association). When I first became active in collecting and going to shows (about 5 - 6 years ago), I never left a show without buying. My philosophy is pretty basic, I buy what interests me, hoping that at some point when I sell, I can at least recover my investment. I don't buy any knives thinking of making an investment/profit.

In the past year or two, what I have noticed, and discussed with several of the dealers, and has been discussed here, prices have and are going up. I like the shows as it allows close inspection of the knife, and how it feels in my hand, along with the quality and appeal, influences my decision as to whether I purchase it.

I have noticed at recent shows, the number of dealers have diminished as has the number of buyers. Some dealers stop setting up after experiencing no business.

I don't have an answer, but it seems that some dealers have created this situation by pricing their knives above what buyers are willing to pay. The sad part from my perspective, is that if this continues it could mean the end of the shows.

Peter
 
HI Pete,

In any industry all products produced follow the product life cycle. This cycle ends in "death". At one time Buggy Whips were big sellers an integral part of the horse and carriage trade. Time marches on, new technologies emerge and the buggy whip business either adapts or dies. You move from buggy whips to providing equestrian gear, riding crops for example.

So it goes in custom knives. The difference now is that the new technologies are already in place and new makers with "mad" skills are showing up every month. The ABS is training new makers at their school and because of the maker network set up are coming to shows after 1 year of making knives. With the skills of a maker who before would have been at it for 5 years.

Most custom knife buyers (especially with 3 years or less experience) rely on others to provide them information. I know I have "go to guys" when I have questions about custom knives, steel, materials, current organizational status, photography, etc. The guys I go to are "experts" in their respective fields.

One of the main problems with the Internet is that many times the collector/buyer/investor do not question the credentials of the individual who they are getting their decision making from information from those who may know as much or less than the person looking for information.

The choices today are more numerous that at any other time in custom knives. Consequently if you are having difficulty with a maker on whatever level find someone else. Of course this is easier said than done for most.

WWG
 
sorry, I mean "WoodWorkGhost"... I heard typewriters are not being produced anymore. Interesting. When a maker is putting out small fixed blade hunters, polished ATS-34, dyed stag grips for close to $3000 and has a years' long wait list, it obviously isn't all about that highly polished expertly ground ATS-34. It's mostly about the name on the blade and the availablilty of knives from that name on the blade. Tell me, what ingredients go into someone wanting that name? Does it matter if that name on the blade cares about giving his customers a solid value, or a reasonably solid value? Does it matter if the maker couldn't care less about the aftermarket? To me, that means he couldn't care less about the value of his product once it leaves his hands. To me, as a customer, that matters. I know, just go buy knives somewhere else. I do. All I'm saying is that these kinds of things matter to me and I'm curious, does it matter to most of you out there?
 
WWG,
I guess the obvious is "change is inevitable". Sometimes changes are good and sometimes otherwise.

In regard to the prior(?) trend mentioned of highly embellished folders, there was a purveyor at the last show I attended in November that had an extraordinary display of such knives. Made by the top makers and engraved and scrimmed by the top scrimshanders and engravers. All the names you would immediately recognize.

I had a great time looking at those works of immense artistic talent, but....since the range of prices were typically $5000 - $8000, all I did was look. I saw many others feasting their eyes also, but I didn't see any transactions taking place (perhaps I just wasn't watching at the right time?).

I would think there will always be interest in such knives but at what price will be more interesting.

Peter
 
AV8R said:
To me, as a customer, that matters. I know, just go buy knives somewhere else. I do. All I'm saying is that these kinds of things matter to me and I'm curious, does it matter to most of you out there?
Click to expand...

1. There is no reason to be insulting to Roger or WWG on THIS thread.

2. I have two hard and fast rules:

Piece first, Maker Second, Price Third. This means that I must love the knife, the maker must make work of renown/exceptional value, and lastly, the price is right. Over the last few years there has been some latitude in that area.

Last year, a maker who I like, respect and who is extremely well known and sought after asked ME if he could make me a knife. He wanted to have one in my collection. Because of his "normal" prices, I paid double my usual limit and am happy to do so.

Second rule-If the maker is a friend, bend, if the maker is a stranger, stray from danger-Personal relationships are what keeps this interesting. I communicate with at least 5 makers a week. Some are like family. If the price is right, and I love the piece, I will sometimes pick up the knife, even if I don't "need" it. EVERYONE has different financial situations, so it is difficult to say.

If I was going to drop $10,000 on a Ron Lake(that will never happpen:D ), and he showed the marked disinterest in the aftermarket that you allude to, there would be SERIOUS problems.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I wonder what the next price collapse could be. For a while, I thought it would be custom tactical folders, and I still believe that to some extent. Now, I wonder if there's not a glut of clean, well made, wood-handled, and pretty generic in design, forged bowies. Unlike WWG and I suspect STeven and a few others here, I don't really have my finger on the pulse of the market.
 
Let's clear the air here a bit. Roger and I went back and forth a bit and think that's behind us. I hope so. I did come to the realization that the word "gouging" was a poor choice and stated so with an explanation. I was not ever insulting to Woodworkghost. The Wildwestguns thing was a little meaningless joking around. "WWG". I don't have time for this. I'm out.
 
Joss said:
Now, I wonder if there's not a glut of clean, well made, wood-handled, and pretty generic in design, forged bowies.
Click to expand...

There is, and will continue to be a glut of the above. I expect to see it in person at the ABS Reno Show.

I also expect that Dan Farr, Burt Foster, Harvey Dean, Nick Wheeler and a few others will sell out everything that they have.

It is not that the market is soft for forged blades right now, it is that the market is recognizing imagination, skills and value over the "hype" of the forged blade.

In other words, it just is NOT enough to be an ABS MasterSmith this year(who in the past three or four year, a number of, have fallen prey to shall we say, optomistic pricing.)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Joss said:
Now, I wonder if there's not a glut of clean, well made, wood-handled, and pretty generic in design, forged bowies.
Click to expand...
(Bold type mine)
You noticed this too. I like a lot of knives, but this is an area that just doesn't compel me to buy. I have thought this scenario as well.

Coop
 
Guys,

Of course there are more hunters than any other knife out there. This the entry level knife for most makers. As well with price points ranging from $85 - $5,000. Primarily $175 - $375 range for basic hunters with shiny blades a guard and wood scales. The reason there are so many of these out there?

1) It is in a price range that most people can afford who are interested in a custom knife.

2) In theory it has a purpose. As such the buyer can talk himself/herself into buying that knife for that reason.

3) If they do sell the knife probably the most they would lose is $100. Which most people in the custom knife market can absorb.

The really high end knife market is the very very top of the custom knife market and in this rarefied air there are few players. Most have either a working relationship with the makers they collect and/or a dealer. Most of these knives go into private collections and are never seen by the general public.

Part of the reason you see so many $1,000 + Damascus folders out there is that so many makers made so many of them. After the tactical folders brought back alot of the buyers who left the market after the early 90's. They started the trend of Damascus blades on "tactical" knives, the Damascus bolsters and finally to a natural handle material moving the tactical folder into the presentation folder market. Once these got hot established and new makers alike jumped on this market trend. Fast forward 10 years and you have big time collectors like Ed Wormser, Walter Hoffman and Don Guild with web sites selling some truly exceptional knives. These collectors were smart enough to see what was happing with in demand knives. They and other former collectors are now dealers. I am amazed at the amount of dealers selling high end folders. Many of these folders except for the most in demand knives are slow to sell. None the less, collectors are now getting to view these exceptional knives at shows. While they many not be jumping off the table they are giving collectors pause for thought.

The wheel that is the custom knife market turns slowly but it returns to where it started. As collectors like Ed, Don and Walter continue to lead the way in the upper end market of presentation/art folders. Other makers and collectors my accept the challenge and the next renaissance period my begin.

On the fixed blade side of the house let us not forgert Phil Lobred who has done as much as anyone to push the envelope on art knives and dare I say, investment knives.

The fact remains that the US economy is still recovering from the stock market "adjustment" after 9/11. While the Dow is at a record high, the NASDAQ is not making as robust a recovery.

Consequently, more custom knives are being sold than fiver years ago...its just at a lower price point.

The other thing that no one is talking about is the mind set of the buying public with regards to custom knives as investments. Most of you have made it very clear that there are no such thing. So anyone thinking about a $5,000 + knife better know that they are not going to receive the ROI on that knife as they would on a basic CD. With the possible exceptions of Loveless, Moran, Walker and Lake.

I can remember when $1,000 was a price point that very few would approach. Now it is just a speed bump in the aftermarket. :D

WWG
 
Hi Joss,

Glut is not the right word yet...but it is headed that way. I say there isn't a glut primarily because more buyers are buying forged blades. This sector of the market will continue to grow for some years to come.

STeve, I love the term "Optimistic Pricing". That is it in a nut shell.

There are a group of JS Makers who are going to push many of the MS makers into retirement over the next 10 years. Their work in many cases is equal to or better than some of the MS makers. They are adhering to a pricing structure that for the most part keeps them at or slightly below the market. They also understand that they have to keep their names out there and more importantly are actually taking steps to do that.

Perhaps they understand that it is up to them as the ABS does nothing to market its makers. Hell they can't even list the JS Makers on their web page (as they do for the MS makers). Before you start, yes I know the ABS is a "non-profit organization". While they will not allow the makers to put their logo on the makers business cards because it may be viewed as a conflict of interest. They can none the less sell that maker a ABS Hat, Shirt, Belt Buckle and coffee Mug to wear to a show and drink out of. But I digress.

Joss you are correct, there are "Gluts" out there and when that happens the market makes the correction and those stop selling. The key for the collector is to know when that happens and sell those knives they don't really want. So they can fund their next purchase(s). As well for the maker they need to know when to shift gears and move to or better yet create a new market.

WWG,

Once again going off topic.
 
This is a great thread, and many people have made valid, yet differing points. Bobby Branton summed it up in my mind. Thanks for your insight Bobby, you are always the man as far as I am concerned.


Custom knives require a certain amount of investment, on any level, whether you're making them or buying them. It's entirely up to you how you spend and recoup your investment. That's true from maker to collector.

Bobby has always provided a tremendous value on his knives, AND been perpetually active in the collecting world. He's the motherfucking barometer as far as I'm concerned.
 
Hey Brandon,

Barometer would have been sufficient.

Question what exactly is a "thermidostat"? What and how does it measure?

WWG,

Easily confused by new fangled measuring devices. :D
 
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