Price of blade steel vs performance

DeadboxHero said:
I think you got that twisted Justin.

The chemistry is what decides the carbide type and carbide volume ranges.

It is the carbide type and volume that plays one of the biggest role in controlled edge wear.

On Larrin's graph, you can see that there are lots of softer steels than AEB-L at ~64rc that still cut more even though they are softer HRC they still cut more mm of card stock (S90v, Vanadis 8, etc for example)

The higher volume of harder carbides in a sufficiently hard matrix resisted being worn better than a steel that had a even harder matrix with less carbides and softer carbides.

Also, there were some steels that had more carbide volume and higher matrix hardness but the carbide types were softer so also those did not cut as long such as 10v at 17% volume vs ZDP at 30% plus. Yet, softer 10v at lower carbide volume cut longer because of the Carbide type.


So chemistry is very important for wear resistance potential.

Larrin's article is always worth another read lots of good stuff in there to dig into.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/
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You're right my apologies. Still cant get over how good s30v is at 64-65 lol
That CBN stone you used is pretty interesting I'm gonna have to try that out
 
We are VERY lucky to be able to get AEB-L as cheap as we do.
It’s an amazing stainless steel that excels in almost any application. The only downside in my experience has been warp, but almost always easily corrected.
If it doubled in price I’d still buy it.
Now that AKS is getting it in .250, I can’t wait to see some aeb-l Bowies and tomahawks.
There are videos AKS is posting showing aeb-l being hand forged. Pretty awesome!
 
DevinT said:
High wear resistant steels are 10x harder to finish than simpler steels and you only get twice the edge holding.

For me the bigger savings come from less time and abrasives used.

Hoss
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And much of that difference can be minimized by the ability to go much thinner with AEB-l. Once we go above M4, the edge needs to be quite a bit thicker to prevent the edges from chipping.
 
I think people would be pretty dang surprised what angles they could get away with when it comes to the steels above M4, there hasn't ever been enough of those steels out there for folks to see for themselves.

Willie71 said:
And much of that difference can be minimized by the ability to go much thinner with AEB-l. Once we go above M4, the edge needs to be quite a bit thicker to prevent the edges from chipping.
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DeadboxHero said:
I think people would be pretty dang surprised what angles they could get away with when it comes to the steels above M4, there hasn't ever been enough of those steels out there for folks to see for themselves.
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I just did a z-max knife at Rc69, 0,007” before sharpening, 15 dps, and I chipped it fairly easily. At 0.010”, and 19dps, no problem. That’s what I used to use for skinners before I started playing with the higher alloy steels so that isn’t bad by any stretch.
 
DeadboxHero said:
I like to sharpen when I want to not because I have to. The more expensive, higher wear steel at higher hardness gives a customer/user that option. It's nice to be able to finish what you're cutting without the edge wearing and blunting down smooth in the middle of strenuous cutting
It is a luxury feature.

Nothing wrong with pulling out a pocket stone and going crazy but it's nice when you don't have to.


I've always liked the example Phil Wilson uses of taking down game in adverse weather conditions and it's nice when you know you don't have to stop and touch up the blade in miserable conditions. Just get it down.
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The main question I get when making knives for Canadian hunters is “Can I skin a whole moose without having to touch up the edge?” I have guys who have done 5 or 6 moose before sharpening in z-wear. Three to four deer is normal with W2 or 52100.
 
I've been having a LOT of problems with the thinner stock AEBL (0.082" and under) warping big time. It warps after simply profiling the blade, it warps after the plate quench and cryo, it even warps during grinding. There is a lot of time spent straightening those blades, and while AEBL is cheaper, for me the cost saving isn't worth the time I spend straightening. I have made the decision to skip AEBL from now on and just use up the stock I have on hand, and switch to the next logical step up CPM154 or S35VN. Costs more, but the time saved by not having to straighten after every time you touch it is well worth it to me. The thicker AEBL (like 1/8" and up) doesn't warp as badly, from what I am hearing.
 
Give that New S45vn a try Stuart.

I like it.

The carbides get nice and fine at +2000f

Reminder me of a more edge stable Elmax with lower carbide volume and finer carbides without the wear resistance dropped significantly.

samuraistuart said:
I've been having a LOT of problems with the thinner stock AEBL (0.082" and under) warping big time. It warps after simply profiling the blade, it warps after the plate quench and cryo, it even warps during grinding. There is a lot of time spent straightening those blades, and while AEBL is cheaper, for me the cost saving isn't worth the time I spend straightening. I have made the decision to skip AEBL from now on and just use up the stock I have on hand, and switch to the next logical step up CPM154 or S35VN. Costs more, but the time saved by not having to straighten after every time you touch it is well worth it to me. The thicker AEBL (like 1/8" and up) doesn't warp as badly, from what I am hearing.
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DeadboxHero said:
Give that New S45vn a try Stuart.

I like it.

The carbides get nice and fine at +2000f

Reminder me of a more edge stable Elmax with lower carbide volume and finer carbides without the wear resistance dropped significantly.
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So out of elmax, m390, s35vn, s45vn, s30v which give the finest carbide?
 
I really like AEBL in the knives I have in that steel. A lot!

Im not a super steel snob. I've owned a few in CPM3V, but still love 52100. I've had CPM154, and like it. Offer me two knives, 1 in CPM 154 and the other in AEBL....and it is going to be a tough choice!!
 
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samuraistuart said:
I've been having a LOT of problems with the thinner stock AEBL (0.082" and under) warping big time. It warps after simply profiling the blade, it warps after the plate quench and cryo, it even warps during grinding. There is a lot of time spent straightening those blades, and while AEBL is cheaper, for me the cost saving isn't worth the time I spend straightening. I have made the decision to skip AEBL from now on and just use up the stock I have on hand, and switch to the next logical step up CPM154 or S35VN. Costs more, but the time saved by not having to straighten after every time you touch it is well worth it to me. The thicker AEBL (like 1/8" and up) doesn't warp as badly, from what I am hearing.
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I was going to say the same thing. It sounds like its possible to avoid the warp but you still have to go through extra steps. I have a bunch of thin stock AEB-L that I don't plan on replacing when I use it up. Maybe I will change my mind but that extra time dealing with warps makes it a expensive steel to use in my mind. I will say that thicker stock seems to be better.
 
samuraistuart said:
I've been having a LOT of problems with the thinner stock AEBL (0.082" and under) warping big time. It warps after simply profiling the blade, it warps after the plate quench and cryo, it even warps during grinding. There is a lot of time spent straightening those blades, and while AEBL is cheaper, for me the cost saving isn't worth the time I spend straightening. I have made the decision to skip AEBL from now on and just use up the stock I have on hand, and switch to the next logical step up CPM154 or S35VN. Costs more, but the time saved by not having to straighten after every time you touch it is well worth it to me. The thicker AEBL (like 1/8" and up) doesn't warp as badly, from what I am hearing.
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Storm W said:
I was going to say the same thing. It sounds like its possible to avoid the warp but you still have to go through extra steps. I have a bunch of thin stock AEB-L that I don't plan on replacing when I use it up. Maybe I will change my mind but that extra time dealing with warps makes it a expensive steel to use in my mind. I will say that thicker stock seems to be better.
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I agree. There is a way around this, but it’s tedious. I clamp the steel between two plates and do a 2h subcritical anneal, then heat treat, but instead of cryo, I get dry ice/acetone, clamp the blades again between two plates, than do the sub zero treatment, (my dewar isn’t wide enough to allow me to do this) and after the cold treatment I keep the blades clamped, and do the tempering. They usually come out close to straight after this.
 
I'm pretty new to knife making. The simple answer to the OP is that these other steels are not multiple times better performance wise than AEBL. BUT, when you read through the knife buyers threads you have a lot of people out there chasing after and willing to pay many hundreds of dollars more for a knife made from these other steels even though the improvement may be only a small increment in performance. Soooo, if you are selling them and wanting to maximize profit, those other steels are likely worth the added price. If it is just going in your pocket you will likely be just as happy with your AEBL.

I used to build custom drums. There are quite a few average drummers out there willing to pay big prices to have a drum kit that they will only play in their garage or in the local pub a few times in their lives (like me paying big $$ for my Sage fly rod that I use 15 times a year and cast with basic skills). On the other hand my buddy who is a very very talented session drummer and makes a very good living playing in bands and studio sessions uses a middle of the road 90s Yamaha drum kit on the majority of what he plays and he makes it sound like a million dollars. He gets that the differences are small between his kit and a $15000 custom kit. It's his skill that the artists and studios are paying for, not the kit he hits.
 
Randydb said:
I'm pretty new to knife making. The simple answer to the OP is that these other steels are not multiple times better performance wise than AEBL. BUT, when you read through the knife buyers threads you have a lot of people out there chasing after and willing to pay many hundreds of dollars more for a knife made from these other steels even though the improvement may be only a small increment in performance. Soooo, if you are selling them and wanting to maximize profit, those other steels are likely worth the added price. If it is just going in your pocket you will likely be just as happy with your AEBL.

I used to build custom drums. There are quite a few average drummers out there willing to pay big prices to have a drum kit that they will only play in their garage or in the local pub a few times in their lives (like me paying big $$ for my Sage fly rod that I use 15 times a year and cast with basic skills). On the other hand my buddy who is a very very talented session drummer and makes a very good living playing in bands and studio sessions uses a middle of the road 90s Yamaha drum kit on the majority of what he plays and he makes it sound like a million dollars. He gets that the differences are small between his kit and a $15000 custom kit. It's his skill that the artists and studios are paying for, not the kit he hits.
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I make custom guitars, and the difference between a well built custom, and a properly set up $500 guitar is maybe 5-10%. I can put a $200 guitar in my brother in law’s hands, and he sounds better than I do on a custom I built.
 
samuraistuart said:
Shawn, thanks for the suggestion. I was thinking about that steel when I typed my post, but didn't think it was available quite yet. I just checked NSM and they have it.
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Usaknifemaker has some in stock also.

R Randydb that's also a very very valid point. I've heat treated about 4 AEBL folder blades this week and every one of them have warped so I'm kinda over it already lol
 
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