Price vs Quality???

Joined
Feb 23, 2006
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I am fairly new to all this and have seen big pricing spreads between knives that do not appear hugely different. Sizes are similar, steel is good quality, etc. They both can do the same job. Do you generally get that much more for your money? Is quality, durability, utility that much better?

As an example take the Manix vs. the Delica/Endura. Both have steel liners, VG-10 is good stuff, etc. List price is over $100 more - more than double.

What is the story???
 
In your particular example, the manix is larger, thicker blade, and has better ergos, IMO it's not surprising it costs more.
 
There are inexpensive knives that perform well, like Opinels and SAKs (Swiss Army Knives). To some extent, prices go up faster than increased quality and performance -- it costs a lot to add a little more.

But if you see a price difference within one companiy's offerings, it probably does relate to a significant difference in quality and performance. You just have to look more closely at the specs.
 
Hi LikeHike,

In most cases, retail prices of knives are directly related to the actual costs of producing the model. Also country of manufacture influences costs (eg: Knives made in China will generally be much less expensive than knives made in Japan or the USA due to the differences in labor costs).

Some steels cost 4 or 5 times as much as others to purchase and 2-4 times as much to process those steels into blades. The better steels are better because they don't like to give up material, so grinding, polishing, heat treating, sharpening, etc. costs more). Edge holding, toughness and corrosion resistance (the 3 majors) will also vary by the same numbers.

Some materials like G-10 (Manix) must be machined and individually processed while others like FRN (Endura) can be injection molded. The labor costs to process G-10 are high, while FRN is finished when it comes out of the mold.

There are many types of knives made out of many types of material. The depth of information is as great as one cares to go. That's one of the interesting factors in the study of edged tools.

Hope that helps.


sal
 
Hi Sal,
That does help a lot. But can we take it a step further. Sounds like higher cost is generally be justified. Do you generally get a lot more for your money in terms of actual use and dependability?

Richard
 
The primary improvement of the Manix is the G10, in my opinion, and well worth it. The ergonomics are also top notch.

I don't believe that money equals f&f at all. Past 30 dollars or so, little can be said about f&f in general up until customs or near customs. It seems to be more a product of the company as a whole.

Money doesn't even seem to equal that much in materials anymore. You can buy an S30V knife for 40 dollars now, although, for the most part, G10 stays out of reach of lower priced knives , at least among my favorite manufacturers. Certainly this is true of titanium even more so.

Find what you want though. Regardless of price difference, it's more important that you buy the one that looks and feels right to you while maintaining good materials. It's worth saving up for the one you really want that extra couple months.
 
Hi LikeHike,

Try to think in terms of cars. A 3 cyl Suzuki will certainly get you there. Why then do we have Mercedes and Ferrari?

If "bare bones" minimums are the goal, Opinel and China will reign supreme.

Some however, want a little more horsepower, or maybe better handling. Maybe they want 100K "trouble free" miles.

Locks on folding knives are developing in leaps and bounds, great new concepts hit our industry every year.

Like any industry, there are some products that are better at some things and others better at something else.

That's the beauty of so much variety.

How do you measure "use"? If your in Salt water all day, corrosion resistance becomes very important in the measurement of "use". If you are cutting materials that dull knives easily, better steel offers better "use".

Then there are those that do not use, they just appreciate....maybe looks, maybe exotic materials, maybe "trick" mechanisms" or close tolerance.

Bang for the buck - look at FRN Delica4.

"Wow" this is beautiful, look at Kopa's.

The more we put into it, the more you have to pay for it. Is it justified? Only you know what works for you.

I have an Al Pendray fully serrated Wootz Persian Dagger. Took 8 years to get. Is it worth it :rolleyes: It is to me. One of a kind from a master out of a very difficult to make material.

sal
 
I think that you get a better knife in a lot of cases when you pay $100 vs. $50. I however think that there is little or no difference in what you can get for $100 and $200.

Now people who like Strider and CRK will say that there is a big difference between a $350 Sebbie or Strider vs. say a Benchmade 710 for $115. I see no difference.
 
I think I'd agree with joe dirt for the most part there. You can, 95% of the time, see where your money's going between a 110 and 50 dollar knife, but outside of that, unless you go to exotic materials, it's difficult to see.

I feel 115ish is the sweet spot. You can get pretty much everything you want from a production folder at about this price.
 
Hi Sal,
Thanks again.
So going back to my Spyderco example the Delica4 appears to me to emphasize lightness & compactness compared to the Manix 83mm. The Manix seems to be built more for strengh and durability. So I guess at least part of the extra cost buys durability & strengh.
 
I disagree with Joe about the Sebbie versus the 710. The difference is definitly there, but it is in the form of fit and finish, not performance.

The Sebbie isn't more than twice as good as the 710. You pay a lot more to get a little more, as said above. But IMO, it is clearly a better knife. The performance of the two may be very similar, but the Sebenza has fit and finish of a custom level, while the 710 has the same fit and finish as my $30 CRKT. People say that this Benchmade has great fit and finish, or that that Kershaw is flawless. But in reality, they aren't seeing the little details that more expensive knives get right.

To my eye, the fit and finish of every brand-name production folder up until the level of William Henry or Chris Reeve is about the same. Benchmade, Spyderco, Kershaw, Buck, CRKT etc... yes, some are better than others, but they are generally the same. They all have minor cosmetic flaws and occasional lemons that must be returned. These brands do not make perfect knives. They are not in that business, and if they were, they would cost a lot more.

With small companies like Chris Reeve and William Henry, you have to pay a bit more. Benchmade is a big company that mass produces knives and has very little human eyes and hands involved in the process. Chris Reeve is a small company that doesn't do as much volume, and also spends man-hours hand stroping their knives to a perfect polished edge with no grind lines.

Is it worth it? I think both types of knife are worth it.

I don't really care if the fit and finish of a knife is perfect. I love my AFCK, Manix, SERE 2000 etc... they are great bargains. But they aren't perfect. I also love my Sebenza. I paid more for it, and it doesn't perform better than the Manix and SERE, but I cannot find a single flaw on it. I spend a lot more time marvelling over the Sebenza than I do my Manix or Skirmish. But they all work about as well. If you pick up a SERE or 710 and think it is perfect, then you do not need a Sebenza. But I see all of the little flaws in common production knives like the 710 (and they all have these flaws- the QC and tolerances are not tight enough to get a knife perfect unless it is a fluke), so I need a Sebenza to get a different kind of knife fix.

At the same time, there are more expensive knives that do not nail the fit and finish. I think Strider would be in this group. They have fans for different reasons, but are obviously worth the price to many people (I am going to get an SMF soon, so I will have to see what I think once I get it).

A Corvette Z06 (Manix) will perform just as well as, in fact, probably better than a Ferrari F430 (Sebenza) around a race track (piece of cardboard), but the Ferrari costs a lot more. Is it 2-3 times better of a car? Not based on performance. But the Ferrari, simply because it is less common and produced by a small, renowned company, has a certain aura about it. The Ferrari is more special. Ferrari is a smaller company that does less volume. Their parts are (usually) made special from each car and not grabbed from a parts bin to save money.

I respect the Corvette Z06 as it kills exotic sportscars and supercars costing much more in straight line, cornering, and braking performance. The Corvette is a smart buy. But a Ferrari is what I lust after. It is the passionate buy. Is that worth the extra money? If I had it and could afford it, yes. But the Corvettes of the world are worth it, too.

Because of diminishing returns, the difference between a 50 and 100 dollar knife is easy to see (the more expensive knife will likely have better blade steel and handle materials), but the difference between a 100 and 200 dollar knife will not be. The difference between a 100 and 200 dollar knife will be more in the details, and just the "specialness" of the knife and company. A Lone Wolf or Emerson may not be any better than a Spyderco or Benchmade (even in the details), but the have more of a mystique because they are smaller companies. I think that is worth something. When you go up to a Chris Reeve, you get the mystique and real improments in fit and finish (details).

Everyone has their own line of price/performance that they will not cross. How much are you willing to pay for extremely small improvements, or no real improvements at all other than a more respected name? For me, Chris Reeve and many un-fancy custom makers (such as Hinderer, Obernauf, Martin) represent my line. I will not have 2 grand for an art knife with damascus and ivory blessed by Mother Mary herself. But I will pay 500 bucks for a *user* handmade custom because it gives me a feeling that a 710 cannot.
 
"he Sebbie isn't more than twice as good as the 710. You pay a lot more to get a little more, as said above. But IMO, it is clearly a better knife."

I definately agree with that statement.

"A Corvette Z06 (Manix) will perform just as well as, in fact, probably better than a Ferrari F430 (Sebenza) around a race track (piece of cardboard), but the Ferrari costs a lot more.... to save money."

What Ferrari is this except the old classics?
 
destroythealter said:
What Ferrari is this except the old classics?
Not sure what you mean. Are you saying new Ferraris will outperform a Z06? An Enzo certainly will, but most will not. Ferraris true supercars (Enzo, F50, F40) are definitly way up there, but their sports cars and GTs (F430, F360, 550, 575, 612 etc...) are only on par with, or below the Z06 in terms of objective performance. They may be better dynamically, though.

Or are you saying that Ferraris are no longer as special, and that the new ones are parts bin cars, unlike the classics? That is true to a degree, but the interior of a Ferrari has many more unqiue parts and a more unique styling than a Z06. The Z06 shares many interior nicknacks and mechanical componets with low-end Chevys, while the F430 doesn't have a lot in common with a Fiat (their parent company).

Ferrari isn't known for their fit and finish, but their is still more hands-on work in each Ferrari than a Corvette. That isn't a bad thing when it comes to price/performance... but it is an issue when it comes to lust.
 
I like and use :benchmade, spyderco, CRK, BKand T, kabar-Dozier, and leatherman . I see quality in all these knives. I love the axis lock in the benchmade. Spyderco is so light and comes in wide range of sizes and steels. I could go on , but you get the idea. Quality does come at a price. Then their are Companies like Walmart that can tell a maker what they will give for a knife.
 
Hair said:
Not sure what you mean. Are you saying new Ferraris will outperform a Z06? An Enzo certainly will, but most will not. Ferraris true supercars (Enzo, F50, F40) are definitly way up there, but their sports cars and GTs (F430, F360, 550, 575, 612 etc...) are only on par with, or below the Z06 in terms of objective performance. They may be better dynamically, though.

Or are you saying that Ferraris are no longer as special, and that the new ones are parts bin cars, unlike the classics? That is true to a degree, but the interior of a Ferrari has many more unqiue parts and a more unique styling than a Z06. The Z06 shares many interior nicknacks and mechanical componets with low-end Chevys, while the F430 doesn't have a lot in common with a Fiat (their parent company).

Ferrari isn't known for their fit and finish, but their is still more hands-on work in each Ferrari than a Corvette. That isn't a bad thing when it comes to price/performance... but it is an issue when it comes to lust.

No just saying that as far as I know the fastest Ferrari is faster than fastest Corvette. However, everything you said was correct and makes sense in relation to knives.
 
destroythealter said:
No just saying that as far as I know the fastest Ferrari is faster than fastest Corvette. However, everything you said was correct and makes sense in relation to knives.
Production versus production, yes the fastest Ferrari (Enzo) is faster than the fastest Corvette (Z06). But there are several tuned Corvettes that will murder any street Ferrari, including tuned Ferraris (meaning they will murder them in a straight line and about equal them in cornering and braking). But then Ferrari has their F1 race cars which would murder the C6R race car.

Since folders are not the supercars or race cars of the knife world, I was just comparing sportscars to sportscars (high-performance EDC folders).

Chevy does not have an answer to the Enzo, but the Enzo would be more like a large Busse in terms of performance, which is much higher than a Corvette (Manix) or F430 (Sebenza). I think of fixed blades as supercars or racing cars. They have better inherent performance, but that does not mean they are better overall knives as things like comfort and practicality matter as well.

Also, while a big fixed blade (super car) may be great at chopping (a large race track), something like an Opinel (Lotus Elise) would be better around a tight autocross (slicing). So performance comes in different forms.
 
Hair,

You hit it right on in your first big post in this thread.

I agree with you 100%.

I think you and I (and many other people for that matter) have a different idea of what perfect is :)

Nice post. :thumbup:
 
Since I type so damn much, I can't possibly *not* hit the nail on the head eventually :D
 
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