Prices for mid-tech/high end production folders.

[jdm61]

I have been looks at some of the mid tech/production tactical folders from the Us and China and they look nice, but they can be a tad pricey. For those who might know, do you think that the pricing on these is based on the typical manufacturer-->wholesaler-->MSRP-->"discounted" real street price model you typically see with knives or are these getting some bump, perhaps using a formula of some kind of percentage of the cost of the full blown custom knives in the case of famous makers who have started having these knives made? I look at the WE knives at $285 street price and that is a fair bit more than what a "celebrity maker" ZT seems for and those are made in the US.

 

[K.O.D.]

It's economy of scale, largely. The big names like Spyderco, Benchmade, ZT/Kershaw produce a very massive amount of knives compared to everyone else. They are able to buy materials for much less due to bulk discount. This in turn reduces the cost to the consumer. American made is no longer a guarantee of quality either.

Generally, as the price goes up, so does the attention to detail. Smaller companies can charge what they do because of the increased fit and finish, and/or famous name.

3 of the 4 ZT's I owned had to go in for warranty work. I own none now. I've had one Spyderco go in, a PM2. Don't get me started on Benchmade. Owned at one point 4 Kizers, never a problem. Perfect f&f.

A large portion of cost for knives such as Hinderer and Strider are because of reputation/maker name. The materials are not anything special, and the f&f is not that far above a regular production knife.

CRK is a bit different. You ARE paying for the name, but also a level of quality, f&f, and attention to detail.

IMO, Ccustom the only one of the big three mid-tech companies that can justify their prices.

As far as Reate, Rike, and WE knives are concerned, they are more than what I'm willing to pay for a Chinese made knife. $200 is about my limit.

There are American made, custom and mid tech's out there between that $200 and $400 range is much rather give my money to. I have three such knives-- Three Sisters Forge Beast, Southern Grind Spider Monkey, and my new Bailey model 2 geek edition flipper.

Those 3 knives hit far, far above their belt.

The Bailey is proof that a really good flipper does not require a bearing pivot. I actually like it better than the bearing flippers I've owned, which include a Brian Tighe custom.



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[palonej]

After biting the bullet and buying a Kizer Corto to check out, I can honestly say the China companies can make a hell of a knife when they want to. It's worth every penny as far as I'm concerned. Excellent F&F.....just excellent!! Beautiful blade profile with a nice edge. Incredibly smooth action and perfect lock up......got it for $140.
I thought that I'd never pay that much for China made, but they upped their game big time.
Looking at a WE 603a now.....$285 retail new. Sounds like a ton of cash, but I think if it was USA made it would cost closer to $400.
Joe

 

[archieblue]

K.O.D. nailed it. The only thing I would add is that a standard issue, basic Microtech is typically really nice for the price.


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[jdm61]

The economies of scale issue may get a little fuzzy. The discussions that I have seen lead me to believe that a lot of the high end Chinese blades are made by the same couple of OEM manufactures. I suspect that a lot of the American made ones are typically made by folks like Halpern, Millit, etc. From what I have seen, even ZT goes to the well known contractors for outsourcing of services here in the US. For example, Larkin has a picture of a 0560 blade on their website. From my VER limited exposure to these OEM manufacturers, the issue in some cases may not only be cost to manufacturer but also CAPACITy to take on new projects. Within that is a factor not only with these Chinese companies, but also the ones in Taiwan and even the boys in Maniago, Italy. They may the only ones that can produce a knife of the quality you seek when you actually want it in some cases. I was asking about the pricing model because, as i said, you see the ZT stuff priced lower and knives like the new WE models priced closer to blades like the titanium models from Lion Steel. We can talkabot relative labor cost, but we know that a lot of the work on all of these knives are done on CNC gear, so the labor cost on any of them is a smaller percentage of the cost that it would have been 40 years ago.

 

[jdm61]

Their aluminum frame knives trade for about twice as much as the Lion Steel aluminum knives. so I think that they are trading on the Microtech name to a large degree. That is kind of my question about the new Chinese stuff. Have some of them been trading on the name of the famous knifemakers/designers who contracted with them initially and have they gone beyond that in that they can now charge similar prices for their own in house designs?

K.O.D. nailed it. The only thing I would add is that a standard issue, basic Microtech is typically really nice for the price.


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[The Aflac Duck]

So basically you're wondering why some Chinese manufacturers are demanding more coin than American makers? It's very simple- machining costs.

Taking a look at Reate, for example, you can buy an integral flipper with timascus inlays and a hand-rubbed satin finish for under $600 from them. What are those Taiwan-made Nirvanas going for

Some other models like the Liong Mah Reate collabs are superbly finished with high attention to detail and much cleaner machining patterns and contours. A similar knife made by ZT would easily cost $500. Look at ZT's current lineup and then look at Reates, notice how the machining on the ZT's is much less complex, and therefore sell at a lower price.

You also have demand and marketing that comes into play also. Reate caught a little bit of grief when they released their Horizon-D models which sold for nearly $500, but people readily bought them and didn't have any complaints because they felt the price was justified. I was hesitant about their prices as well, but I feel that they are comparatively priced against the competition when looking at the big picture.

 

[jdm61]

Well, it is fair to say that they are the only people offering a knife like that for $500, right? Of course, at the other end of the Chinese made, finished elsewhere scale, yo have the $1500 knives from the Moscow boys at Custom Knife Factory. I have not handled any of these new Chinese made knives. The only one of this type the I have owned was a ZT 0560 and that was pretty nice. it had sone fairly elaborate machine in that it had the checkered scale. FINISHING is where I think you would see a lot of added cost and some have complained that a lot of the tactical knives cheat with the tumbled "stone wash" finish.

So basically you're wondering why some Chinese manufacturers are demanding more coin than American makers? It's very simple- machining costs.

Taking a look at Reate, for example, you can buy an integral flipper with timascus inlays and a hand-rubbed satin finish for under $600 from them. What are those Taiwan-made Nirvanas going for

Some other models like the Liong Mah Reate collabs are superbly finished with high attention to detail and much cleaner machining patterns and contours. A similar knife made by ZT would easily cost $500. Look at ZT's current lineup and then look at Reates, notice how the machining on the ZT's is much less complex, and therefore sell at a lower price.

You also have demand and marketing that comes into play also. Reate caught a little bit of grief when they released their Horizon-D models which sold for nearly $500, but people readily bought them and didn't have any complaints because they felt the price was justified. I was hesitant about their prices as well, but I feel that they are comparatively priced against the competition when looking at the big picture.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

Well, it is fair to say that they are the only people offering a knife like that for $500, right? Of course, at the other end of the Chinese made, finished elsewhere scale, yo have the $1500 knives from the Moscow boys at Custom Knife Factory. I have not handled any of these new Chinese made knives. The only one of this type the I have owned was a ZT 0560 and that was pretty nice. it had sone fairly elaborate machine in that it had the checkered scale. FINISHING is where I think you would see a lot of added cost and some have complained that a lot of the tactical knives cheat with the tumbled "stone wash" finish.

Yes, I'd say it's fair to say that Reate is the only one currently offering such a thing. Their other latest offering, the Epoch, is also a heavy hitter for it's price.

Many of the knives CKF are making are priced accordingly too, IMO. The ones that are fetching $1,000+ have been customized in-house by Stas Bondarenko, so you're paying for Stas' labor for customization.

The 0560 is a good example of nice machining patterns, but it doesn't have the same contours that some Chinese makers are producing today. A contour with a steeper radius only adds to machining and material cost since you need to A) remove more material via CNC (more time=more $$$) to achieve said look and B) start with thicker material stock to allow such designs (which also raises cost).

And of course, finishing is a huge factor. I'm happy to finally see satin blades come back a little bit, we need to get out of the "Stone Age"

Country of origin and politics aside, China is making great stuff that shouldn't be ignored.

 

[jdm61]

They are making really nice stuff and they have the advantage of being able to charge Western Liberal Democracy prices. Good on them. We have almost managed to totally convert the Chinese into greedy imperialist capitalist oppressors. You are right about some materials cost. the price of raw materials for an integral titanium folder like the Lion Steel SR 1 is a good example. In the custom knife world, they tell you that steel, etc is almost a small potion of the value of your knife. of course,that theory goes out the window when you are talking about big blocks of titanium, complex damascus, timascus, moku-ti or fancy mammoth ivory.

Yes, I'd say it's fair to say that Reate is the only one currently offering such a thing. Their other latest offering, the Epoch, is also a heavy hitter for it's price.

Many of the knives CKF are making are priced accordingly too, IMO. The ones that are fetching $1,000+ have been customized in-house by Stas Bondarenko, so you're paying for Stas' labor for customization.

The 0560 is a good example of nice machining patterns, but it doesn't have the same contours that some Chinese makers are producing today. A contour with a steeper radius only adds to machining and material cost since you need to A) remove more material via CNC (more time=more $$$) to achieve said look and B) start with thicker material stock to allow such designs (which also raises cost).

And of course, finishing is a huge factor. I'm happy to finally see satin blades come back a little bit, we need to get out of the "Stone Age"

Country of origin and politics aside, China is making great stuff that shouldn't be ignored.

 

[ATJ999]

I just bought an amazing mid-tech on the forums in mint condition for $325. Great deal for what I got! Just gotta look around as much as possible. This is a great place to buy.

 

[Ratman79]

I agree with Blues Bender about the great stuff coming from China recently. The only Reate I own is the carbon fiber Horizon and I like it very much. M390 blade, great fit/finish--it can easily hold its own against a quality American maker like Hinderer for example. The xm18 spanto is nice too, but I find myself reaching for the reate more often...