Problems with making a sword

D

deloid

Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
458
After talking to a couple of well known bladesmiths I am left with the impression that sword making is much more difficult than I anticipated.

I was interested in trying my hand at forging a ~30” historical replica but now I don’t know.

The problems I see are as follows. I would love to have others add to this list.
• Can only heat and work 5-6” at a time
• While I am adept at making Bowie bevels I never worked at symmetry for a double bevel sword or even a dagger.
• I primarily forge and grind only on my small baldor 7” grinder on a very limited basis (this limits my capacity to work a sword)
• I can’t HT a sword (forge is too small) unless I build a temporary forge for that length or I use the Tai Goo pipe method over a large pit
• If I can get the sword fully to the temp for (likely 5160) I would have to build a specialized quench tank.
• Heating small sections so many times would require a greater need for normalizing…repeatedly (again needing a special forge) and I suspect that this would add to the warping that will naturally be occurring. Making certain that the grain was uniformly small is more difficult.
• I work solo (wife and daughters are busy) so keeping the piece symmetric and straight would be difficult. It would be easier to have someone hold the work and guide me to areas that need work.
• On my Bowies, if I make a mistake I can change the design and no one will ever know. On swords you can’t change the design in a short section.

Positives:

• Don Fogg’s fuller scraping method could cover up symmetry issues with the bevel.
• I have read and understood the three Jim Hrisoulas books.
• I have an excellent collection of books that give accurate historical sword dimensions including weight and balance point.
• This forum

I would love comments. I am extremely interested in attempting to make at least one well made sword and I am willing to go through several failures. Would anyone be willing to advise me as I work solo (for a fee) using Skype? Is there anyone willing to take me on as a student (willing to travel)? My hammering technique and general knowledge is not bad.

I know I can’t make anything close to the sword Kevin recently showed us but I would like to make something historically correct, well made (metallurgy) and good looking (fine work). The sheath is not a problem for me.

Thanks for any guidance-

Dean
Boise, Idaho
* This was a bit difficult to post since most of the posters asking about swordmaking tend to be teenagers. I'm 54 and have no need for a sword, I simple want the experience of making one.
 
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Dean,
Why is working only 5-6" a a time a negative? Thats how I do it and many others do it. How about sending out the blade for heat treat?

Its always easier to have someone to help, however most of us work alone.
As far as working on double edges, the only cure there is to do it, make a couple of daggers.
Del
 
delbert ealy said:
Dean,
Why is working only 5-6" a a time a negative? Thats how I do it and many others do it. How about sending out the blade for heat treat?

Its always easier to have someone to help, however most of us work alone.
As far as working on double edges, the only cure there is to do it, make a couple of daggers.
Del
Click to expand...

As a stand alone it's not a negative but it ties in to short segment errors and compatibility with the rest of the form as well as multiple heats that impacts the bordering areas in a negative manner.

I HT my own blades but I do know many send their blades out for HT. I think of this as an option for knives but who would want to take the risk with swords on a commercial basis?

I'm working on daggers right now and it's not as difficult as I thought it might be. The major difference I'm finding with these practice daggers is that It works better for me when I work slower, flip more often between blows and use the curve as a guidline for the opposite bevel. When the blade straightens out the bevel's pretty close.
 
I have found that trying to work an area larger than 6 inches of forging heat on a sword ends up with all sorts of reaction noodling in whatever portion is not on the anvil and continuous straightening, I really like to keep the forging heat zone between 4 and 6 inches when I'm moving metal, straightening at low heat I'll use my 18 inch deep welding forge for, but fine tuning I'll go back to 6 inch zones. Daggers are great practice

-Page
 
sunshadow said:
I have found that trying to work an area larger than 6 inches of forging heat on a sword ends up with all sorts of reaction noodling in whatever portion is not on the anvil and continuous straightening, I really like to keep the forging heat zone between 4 and 6 inches when I'm moving metal, straightening at low heat I'll use my 18 inch deep welding forge for, but fine tuning I'll go back to 6 inch zones. Daggers are great practice

-Page
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Page, your comment gave me an idea that is probably incorrect. Is it possible to normalize that working 4-6" area (and the surrounding "margin") with your 18" forge? I don't know if there is a negative impact from leaving part of the blade unheated when normalizing a 30" blade.
 
OK, you seem to have a fair idea of how to make a knife, but lack the extra knowledge that sword making requires.
1) You probably need less equipment for a sword.
2)The bevels are normally filed in, not ground. A little grinding to get the profile defined is OK, but do the rest by draw filing.
3)The forging is done in small segments of 4-6". Forget about your worries on normalization. The last segment will be normalized enough by each adjacent heat.
4)The full normalizing is done at the end of each days forging, and again prior to HT. The same method is used to bring the entire sword up to temp as is done in HT ( read on).
5)The HT is done easily in and small forge. 12-16" is more than enough. The blade is "pumped" in and out, with the tip going from about the center of the forge and out the rear port. Slow and steady pumping with constant checks by a magnet will get you to austenitization. With 5160, the "Range of Grace" is pretty large, and you should have no problems. Since you will not be going for a hamon, the heat up should be a piece of cake.
6)The quench for 5160 will be any medium grade quench oil. About 3-5 gallons is good for a sword, but less can be made to work for 5160. A tall tank can be made from a steel plate and a 48" piece of 3-4" pipe. Weld the base on and make a wooden stand to hold it upright. Straighten the blade right out of the quench tank while it is still hot.
7)Temper in the kitchen oven with the sword stuck in diagonally. The end may stick out the top corner of the door. That is OK. Temper for 1.5 hours, turn it around and temper 1.5 hours more. Cool to room temp and repeat.
8) Finish by hand using stones and wet-or-dry paper backed by a hardwood block. Swords of exquisite detail and quality can be made by this method.
 
Stacy,

I don't know what to write other than thank you but that doesn't seem like enough. There is a world of information I needed in that post of yours and you have given me the confidence to proceed.

Dean
 
Dean, I can help you If you can wait until winter. I have a 45 in paragon for heat treating and a long cylinder that holds five gallon of oil for quenching. I have done a few swords although they have ben single edge japanese style. If you are interested give me a call at the number you have.
 
Bill Burke said:
Dean, I can help you If you can wait until winter. I have a 45 in paragon for heat treating and a long cylinder that holds five gallon of oil for quenching. I have done a few swords although they have ben single edge japanese style. If you are interested give me a call at the number you have.
Click to expand...

Deal!! I'll call you later Bill...Thanks!

Dean
 
Walter Sorrells' videos on making Japanese swords show the "pumping" technique quite well. IIRC, his "Hamon" video shows the HT and quench ( the water quench is different than what you need, but the heating is explained quite well.).

A note to those who think about making a temporary quench tank from PVC....Don't.
It can easily melt through when quenching a sword. Some common things that can be scrounged to make a sword size quench tank are - Old compressed gas cylinder (cut off the top); piece of large pipe with a plate welded on the bottom. If your welds aren't super oil tight, pour about 2" of epoxy resin in the tank to seal it ( clean it well first); gutter downspout with a wooden plug and epoxy seal; some tall metal military shipping boxes ( for rockets?) work superb. A trip to a scrap or junk yard will find a lot of quench tank possibilities.

With all those options, I would suggest going over to Bill's. The opportunity is not one to pass up.
 
Glad to see this post, I've got my first real sword leaning against my shop wall, forged from 5160 round bar, normalized and rough ground. Just haven't had time to mess with it and figure out a way to quench it and temper. Haven't tried to fit it in the kitchen oven yet. Got room for a sword quench tank, but haven't built one yet as I didn't want it to be permanent as I dought I'll be doing a lot of swords. Still got a lot to learn. My biggest knife to date was a 12" blade on a bowie. The sword has been a learning experiance for sure. Thanks for the ideas.

Deloid, make sure you post some pics when finished, and let us know how it goes. Maybe I can figure out what I'm doing in the process!
 
Stacey has it right. You don't need much equipment to make a good sword. I have been working with Wally Hayes for 3yrs now and have seen swords made with files and a BBQ forge with a hairdryer blower. His quenchtank was a hole in the ground with a tarp for a liner. It's not the tools its the maker. Wally made a perfect Conan sword on a 1x30 craftsman! You are closer than you think to making your sword, buddy! Stay sincere to your goal and these guys will help work out the kinks.

... and it didn't happen without pics!!!!!


Rick
 
The most important thing to remember is that swords are not big knives. Sadly I don’t think I have yet seen a knifemaker successfully make the transition to swords, sword shaped objects- yes, but not swords. But sword makers seem to be able to do the reverse, I have always been a sword maker, since I was a kid I have been fascinated by them and making knives allows me to pursue that original interest. One needs to have the drive to devote oneself to understanding the differences, both subtle and profound, from knives to swords. They only look like knives but they are not even in the same family or genus. They handle differently, cut differently (think super concentrated blunt trauma instead of knife like cutting) and are much more of a very specialized, fine tuned, tool than a knife. A sword is a finely tuned tool designed specifically for disassembling human beings. I have always been puzzled by sword collectors who think nobody should own a gun because guns kill people, I can think of numerous uses for guns that don’t involve harming people in any way… but swords were made for one thing. I mention this because if focusing on this dark side of this most iconic object troubles you, it may be difficult for you to design and make a proper sword.

In talking with my friend Tim Zowada about his fascination with razors I pointed out that on a macro scale swords and razors actually have much in common that is not so of knives. Not that a useful sword should ever be “razor sharp” despite the garbage spewed in the History Channel and others, but that they both use a cleaving action against human tissue. One tops the whiskers on your neck, while the other just tops your neck.

SSO’s (sword shaped objects) however can be used for machete type tasks, although not for long, or be beautiful works of metal sculpture, neither is any less legitimate despite their noticeable difference from real swords. And the average knifemaker is more than capable of producing them with the tools they already have. One can make a SSO with very little study of ancient combat, or the ancient objects themselves, while I will spend the rest of my life trying to understand the complex dynamics of real swords. It is tough to get good data without this devotion, there are very few people who actually know how to use swords in the 21st century, fencing foils or rattan sticks are not swords, and access the real deal is extremely limited.

To be a sword maker is to pour your blood sweat and tears into making a tool that will perform its task as effectively as it possibly can, and then praying nobody ever realizes it by using it for that intended purpose. It is also to be cash poor from targeting one of the narrowest markets imaginable, so you really need that passion and fascination for these things in order to do it.

P.S. this is all from a perspective of double edged European styles swords, which is a much narrower market and has more complex functional dynamics than Asian single edged blades.
 
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I'll check out that video Stacy and of course I'm not passing up on Bill's kind offer. Thanks for the encouragement Rick!
William I would like to see pics of your sword at it's "waiting" stage. can you post a pic here or if you prefer send privately (see my web page). We both grew up in dairy country so we probably have a lot to talk about.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Sadly I don’t think I have yet seen a knifemaker successfully make the transition to swords, sword shaped objects- yes, but not swords.
One needs to have the drive to devote oneself to understanding the differences, both subtle and profound, from knives to swords. They only look like knives but they are not even in the same family or genus. They handle differently, cut differently (think super concentrated blunt trauma instead of knife like cutting) and are much more of a very specialized, fine tuned, tool than a knife.

I mention this because if focusing on this dark side of this most iconic object troubles you, it may be difficult for you to design and make a proper sword.


SSO’s (sword shaped objects) however can be used for machete type tasks, although not for long, or be beautiful works of metal sculpture, neither is any less legitimate despite their noticeable difference from real swords. And the average knifemaker is more than capable of producing them with the tools they already have. One can make a SSO with very little study of ancient combat, or the ancient objects themselves, while I will spend the rest of my life trying to understand the complex dynamics of real swords. It is tough to get good data without this devotion, there are very few people who actually know how to use swords in the 21st century, fencing foils or rattan sticks are not swords, and access the real deal is extremely limited.

To be a sword maker is to pour your blood sweat and tears into making a tool that will perform its task as effectively as it possibly can, and then praying nobody ever realizes it by using it for that intended purpose. It is also to be cash poor from targeting one of the narrowest markets imaginable, so you really need that passion and fascination for these things in order to do it.
Click to expand...

This is a realistic but somewhat depressing post. I realize the years you have invested but my library is quite large already and I have read many classic books on myths, fighting, size, typology etc....

I DO NOT want to make a SSO, and I do have the drive, initiative and skills required for achieving a rapid learning curve. My web site is only the tip of the iceberg as a representation of what I do and what I have accomplished. I do think that given proper guidance by folks as I am getting and hopefully links, advice or an invite to your shop Kevin, I can get this done properly. I also know that Bill will give me a huge head start.

Thanks,
Dean
 
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Deloid,
I think that's about the best answer anyone can give to what Kevin posted. You can take any passion to it fullest (as Kevin is doing) or you can take it to your personal limits. For Kevin to take shortcuts and make a SSO would be a disrespect to his art... not so much for you. I have no problem calling what is generally recognized as a sword, a SWORD. If I were to take it further and claim it to be "comparable to the swords of old" I had better have done my research and put the time in. There is a learning curve and I don't think doing what you want to do, takes away from Kevin's hard work. The enlightened folks who value the true meaning of "sword" will know and the ones slowly moving toward the light, will learn.

Be sincere and have fun.

Rick
 
deloid said:
... I DO NOT want to make a SSO, and I do have the drive, initiative and skills required for achieving a rapid learning curve...
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I wouldn't want to sell the SSO makers short, I have seen many beautiful creations in this genre, and lets face it, unless you are willing to spend some serious time in a penitentiary, there is no realistic reason to expect the difference to matter much beyond the makers established goals. It is not a matter of personal skill, otherwise I would probably be out of the running, it is instead a matter of appropriate source data in the 21st century. There are some who have access to that source data who are making fantastic swords in much less time.

Unlike many others I do not necessarily use SSO as a pejorative as they are actually more appealing to a wider audience, while no less practical, in this day and age. You yourself pointed out the daunting task before you, I am merely pointing out that it is a life long journey that can last well beyond the one venture into longer steel. I have been pounding hot steel to edges for over 30 years and really needed two lifetimes to devote to both swords and knives in order to scratch the surface.

I look forward to seeing your ventures into longer steel:thumbup:
 
They (swords) only look like knives but they are not even in the same family or genus.
Click to expand...

Interesting opinion, but incorrect.

They handle differently, cut differently (think super concentrated blunt trauma instead of knife like cutting) and are much more of a very specialized, fine tuned, tool than a knife.
Click to expand...

Swords do present a specific set of problems, but the same could be said of any type of specialized knife.

... all swords are knives, but not all knives are swords.
 
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Tai, I am rather flattered at your fixation on just about anything I say, and since I am in a good mood I am going to make your day by throwing you a bone and actually acknowledging your post.

For one who insists on everybody submitting to your relative or subjective world views you sure do love using the absolute terms of “correct” or “incorrect”. I would also point out that it is impossible for mere opinion to be correct or incorrect, as you should well know since that is the security blanket you live on.

I feel very confident in the education that my opinions on swords are based upon, not because I am any sharper that the average Joe but because I have been fortunate enough to have opportunities in that area of study that are most uncommon in this day and age. I know what I know and I am not going to debate it with you anymore than I would try to have a deeper objective discussion with you on any other topic.

I love ancient and antique swords, I love replicas of those blades, I love beautiful metal sculpture and very large art knives shaped like original swords, every one of them is worthwhile and enjoyable, but I also acknowledge their differences.
 
I feel very confident in the education that my opinions on swords are based upon, not because I am any sharper that the average Joe but because I have been fortunate enough to have opportunities in that area of study that are most uncommon in this day and age.
Click to expand...

Then maybe you can tell us the exact point where a knife becomes a sword or a sword becomes a knife, from a multicultural perspective?

... or the exact point where a sword shaped object becomes a sword, or a sword becomes a sword shaped object?

It’s easy with a spear. It’s a knife on the end of a stick.
 
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