Production M390 - Expectation vs Reality?

[PirateSeulb]

So yes I agree that it will be better edge holding at higher hardness I don't think anyone would really debate that. I am not basing this off charts or any of that though I do recall various things indicating 59 was the low side of the optimum but my recollections are old and certainly prone to being erroneous. I do still believe that anything 58 or above will make for a serviceable edge that is still superior to budget steels assuming a proper edge geometry is also present. The price of the knife absolutely makes a difference as to how acceptable a lower number is since I primarily stick to sub $200 I am not looking for it to be pushed to perfection. I just hate to see the knives that are still good knives get beat up when the score is still 58+ now those sub 58 that is another story. I will often allow for fractional points off say if the target was 59-61 and it tests at 58.6 it is under but certainly appears to have been a reasonable attempt to land in the range that can typically be forgivable.

 

[Batmanacw]

So yes I agree that it will be better edge holding at higher hardness I don't think anyone would really debate that. I am not basing this off charts or any of that though I do recall various things indicating 59 was the low side of the optimum but my recollections are old and certainly prone to being erroneous. I do still believe that anything 58 or above will make for a serviceable edge that is still superior to budget steels assuming a proper edge geometry is also present. The price of the knife absolutely makes a difference as to how acceptable a lower number is since I primarily stick to sub $200 I am not looking for it to be pushed to perfection. I just hate to see the knives that are still good knives get beat up when the score is still 58+ now those sub 58 that is another story. I will often allow for fractional points off say if the target was 59-61 and it tests at 58.6 it is under but certainly appears to have been a reasonable attempt to land in the range that can typically be forgivable.

Tolerances are what they are. They give a range for a reason. We don't know how tight is practical at this point.

Steel Will tells me my Gekko should be 60-61. I can't test it but I have no real reason to doubt them until I see a statistically significant number of failures.

I do know that the M390 in my Gekko acts the way it should. It's tough and holds an edge well. Maybe it could be better but it's pretty impressive right now.

 

[redw0lf]

How do you get HRC tested? And is it reliable? Can it be used against a manufacturer for a replacement or refund?

 

[Banter 247]

How do you get HRC tested? And is it reliable? Can it be used against a manufacturer for a replacement or refund?

To have it done right, you need someone with the right knowledge and equipment. The testing we’ve been using for the google doc shared in this thread has been done by one guy with the correct knowledge and equipment. He has very recently decided to step away, so most of what will be appearing for awhile will be results from prior tests that haven’t been reported, yet.

As for legality... no idea. I’m unaware of legal precedent, and it seems out of scope.

 

[Danke42]

And in the meantime another person one thread over looking for reviews of an Aliexpress DHGate M390 knife shaped object.

I wonder how that one will test.

 

[redw0lf]

To have it done right, you need someone with the right knowledge and equipment. The testing we’ve been using for the google doc shared in this thread has been done by one guy with the correct knowledge and equipment. He has very recently decided to step away, so most of what will be appearing for awhile will be results from prior tests that haven’t been reported, yet.

As for legality... no idea. I’m unaware of legal precedent, and it seems out of scope.

Well, lionsteel as example, posts the HRC on each product on the site. Wouldn't that be in scope of false advertising?
We trust it was done right by one guy? Why did he step away?

 

[Banter 247]

Well, lionsteel as example, posts the HRC on each product on the site. Wouldn't that be in scope of false advertising?
We trust it was done right by one guy? Why did he step away?

I’m not legally trained, so I’ll defer regarding legal matters. I don’t expect everyone to trust his results, but having had visibility on everything behind the scenes, I do. Multiple third party confirmations of results, by testers of companies’ choosing.

As for why he stepped away... personal choice. This started for him as an academic curiosity. He’s a family man, with a regular job, prioritizing those things.

 

[Danke42]

Well, lionsteel as example, posts the HRC on each product on the site. Wouldn't that be in scope of false advertising?
We trust it was done right by one guy? Why did he step away?

Your lawyer is going to cost a lot more than just one knife.

 

[redw0lf]

I’m not legally trained, so I’ll defer regarding legal matters. I don’t expect everyone to trust his results, but having had visibility on everything behind the scenes, I do. Multiple third party confirmations of results, by testers of companies’ choosing.

As for why he stepped away... personal choice. This started for him as an academic curiosity. He’s a family man, with a regular job, prioritizing those things.

I just think, lionsteel as example would have alot more complaints. This is almost non existent vs the volume they must sell. And lets be real, people but these knives to work.
I also find it hard to believe that lionsteel would send DBK, for example.. a perfect knife to test, deliberately, and half ass the main production.
That would be fraudulent, and would not make sense to shave a few bucks and jeporidze your already successful business.
But I suppose everything is possible..

 

[Banter 247]

I just think, lionsteel as example would have alot more complaints. This is almost non existent vs the volume they must sell. And lets be real, people but these knives to work.
I also find it hard to believe that lionsteel would send DBK, for example.. a perfect knife to test, deliberately, and half ass the main production.
That would be fraudulent, and would not make sense to shave a few bucks and jeporidze your already successful business.
But I suppose everything is possible..

I’m not speculating about how it happened, or why. All I know is, a few hit extremely soft, and one of them dulled in 35 feet of cardboard after coming straight off sharpening. That’s not a statement about newer batches, or all samples through history. It’s a report of a few hits. No more, no less.

 

[tomhosang]

To have it done right, you need someone with the right knowledge and equipment. The testing we’ve been using for the google doc shared in this thread has been done by one guy with the correct knowledge and equipment. He has very recently decided to step away, so most of what will be appearing for awhile will be results from prior tests that haven’t been reported, yet.

As for legality... no idea. I’m unaware of legal precedent, and it seems out of scope.

My Anthem that came back at 57 is at Benchmade right now for a new blade. They didn't ask any questions and told me to send it back ASAP.

 

[shunsui]

As for why he stepped away... personal choice. This started for him as an academic curiosity. He’s a family man, with a regular job, prioritizing those things.

Sorry to hear he's out. Feel a little bad about that. Something to remember is those calibration blocks they use in HRC testing have a finite number of hits (space) on them and they cost around $200. That would become an issue after awhile. Not too many of my old bosses would smile favorably on that kind of expense for someone's hobby on the scale you're doing.

You might think about crowdsourcing funds for whoever's doing your testing in the future to cover basic expenses in this kind of testing.

 

[Cosmodragoon]

Sorry to hear he's out. Feel a little bad about that. Something to remember is those calibration blocks they use in HRC testing have a finite number of hits (space) on them and they cost around $200. That would become an issue after awhile. Not too many of my old bosses would smile favorably on that kind of expense for someone's hobby on the scale you're doing.

You might think about crowdsourcing funds for whoever's doing your testing in the future to cover basic expenses in this kind of testing.

The special thing about this project has been the reaching out and getting people working together. LTK already has people volunteering their personal knives. I can see how this could blow up for the one guy doing the testing. Maybe there is a way we could all help. I've got two questions:

1. Is there anyone else who can help with testing steel identity and HRC?

2. If this guy started a Patreon or something, would you donate? Between the people here, in the YouTube audience for participating channels, etc., I'd have to imagine that we can raise something to offset costs or just to say "thanks" for all the hard work.

 

[Banter 247]

Found out this morning that LTK is getting things moving to raise funds to get our guy an appropriate tester for his home.

 

[DaveDM]

I would donate for sure.

 

[redw0lf]

the steel maybe in its infancy, might be a good idea to stick to proven steels and makers, if you are using knives as tools that is.

 

[Rykjeklut]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but Collector Knives just posted a interesting comment on a Shabazz video about hardness and.. Basically this thread. For some reason I couldn't copy but its the pinned comment on this video

 

[Banter 247]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but Collector Knives just posted a interesting comment on a Shabazz video about hardness and.. Basically this thread. For some reason I couldn't copy but its the pinned comment on this video

Here you go:

In the interest of objectivity, here are notes:

1. Tester arranged meeting at Peters with their guy.

2. They compared notes on testing methodology and calibrated process.

3. The Dom did hit higher than previous. They hit it multiple times, could not collectively figure out what was different, and agreed that a third test was a good idea.

4. They tested one previously untested blade, as noted in the linked comment. Results were in-range for what Lionsteel has aimed for.

5. They tested multiple (if memory serves correctly, 4) other, previously tested samples to calibrate and confirmed the results on those.

My advice to the group, as mentioned elsewhere/previously, has been to third party verify any low outliers and report privately to companies first.

 

[stabman]

Here you go:

In the interest of objectivity, here are notes:

1. Tester arranged meeting at Peters with their guy.

2. They compared notes on testing methodology and calibrated process.

3. The Dom did hit higher than previous. They hit it multiple times, could not collectively figure out what was different, and agreed that a third test was a good idea.

4. They tested one previously untested blade, as noted in the linked comment. Results were in-range for what Lionsteel has aimed for.

5. They tested multiple (if memory serves correctly, 4) other, previously tested samples to calibrate and confirmed the results on those.

My advice to the group, as mentioned elsewhere/previously, has been to third party verify any low outliers and report privately to companies first.

So, my take away is that the knives were the hardness the manufacturer claimed...
Doesn't sound like there's an epidemic of soft knives out there after all.
At least that seems like what this might mean, based on my reading of words.

 

[Banter 247]

So, my take away is that the knives were the hardness the manufacturer claimed...
Doesn't sound like there's an epidemic of soft knives out there after all.
At least that seems like what this might mean, based on my reading of words.

I suppose it comes down to whether a person is speaking in terms of a company’s aimed range, or a range more like 60-62. That is for each person to decide.