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Production M390 - Expectation vs Reality?

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by Cosmodragoon, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. halden.doerge

    halden.doerge I'll Sharpen Your Knife Gold Member

    Aug 17, 2014
    Didn't I tell ya?
     
    ScooterG likes this.
  2. ScooterG

    ScooterG You mean Ireland? Yeah, it’s mine. Gold Member

    Mar 15, 2016
    :(
     
  3. halden.doerge

    halden.doerge I'll Sharpen Your Knife Gold Member

    Aug 17, 2014
    I wonder what the next big dust up will be over. :confused:
     
    BigKurtHaze and ScooterG like this.
  4. ScooterG

    ScooterG You mean Ireland? Yeah, it’s mine. Gold Member

    Mar 15, 2016
    Stain-ability of Micarta?
     
  5. trevitrace

    trevitrace Gold Member Gold Member

    Jul 21, 2013
    Being impermeable or not greatly affects its performance. At least significantly enough to start a thread about it.


    :)
     
    ScooterG likes this.
  6. BigKurtHaze

    BigKurtHaze

    645
    Aug 2, 2015
    I really feel like we all just got distracted and should take up our pitchforks and torches and go back after Benchmade for 55 HRC Bailouts. #withinspec #fieldsharpenable
     
    attila. likes this.
  7. knarfeng

    knarfeng senex morosus moderator Staff Member Super Mod Moderator

    Jul 30, 2006
    You can state that someone has inconsistencies in their posts, but you have to quote them and prove the inconsistency. You have to demonstrate that the facts were twisted. To call someone a liar without offering proof will get you an infraction. This is your only warning on this. You pull that crap again and you will achieve a 20 point warning for insulting someone, calling them a liar, and harming their business. Got that now?
     
  8. Mo2

    Mo2

    Apr 8, 2016
    Already posted it.
    https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...-party-hrc-tests.1669990/page-9#post-19107727
     
  9. Pomsbz

    Pomsbz

    Jul 31, 2015
    I've still no idea why my Roundhead would never hold a fine edge. Weird world out there.
     
  10. miso2

    miso2 Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 19, 2014
    The HRc must be 42.

    But seriously, LTK claimed that the edge retention of Shuffler was very bad in their cutting test, which was consistent with their hardness data at the time.
    I asked him what is his take on the cutting test now, but his comment was "no comment".
    I am wondering whether the cutting test was biased by the hardness result, or they are just independent.
     
  11. `br4dz-

    `br4dz- Gold Member Gold Member

    946
    Jan 18, 2016
    That was my exact thought as well. If the blade tested at 58.5/59.1 HRC (I can't remember which number it was between those 2), the cutting performance is a mere fraction of what it should be for M390 of that hardness. All this is subjective and reliant on it being heat treated correctly and that the edge isn't burnt, though. Just seems like there was a giant snowball rolling down at lionsteel and M390 in general, and now that a blade that's ~59 HRC is performing like 8cr13mov when no cut tests of M390 of any hardness has performed that bad in the past, one has to question what went wrong in said cut test(s) and if the people performing said cut tests have eliminated the correct variables to get as close an apples to apples comparison as they can. That's an equally important factor in all of this. Cedric and Ada, for example, has tested a fair amount of M390 and it's siblings, and none of them have performed poorly. I'd imagine they would all test in the 58-60 HRC range as well, given that almost all M390 knives tested so far are hitting that mark.
     
  12. shunsui

    shunsui Gold Member Gold Member

    Aug 12, 2008
    All sorts of bias in testing. Good reason for blind and double blind testing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer-expectancy_effect
     
  13. evilgreg

    evilgreg Why so serious? Gold Member

    Dec 25, 2012
    I'm glad to hear the wonky numbers being reported apparently were wrong.

    That said, I still doubt it would make much practical difference for the vast majority of users whether their pocket knife's blade was ZDP-189 @HRC 67 or VG-10 @HRC 57.
     
  14. Eli Chaps

    Eli Chaps Basic Member Basic Member

    Apr 20, 2018
    Bah. LionSteel Best Man just went on my birthday wish list.

    :)
     
  15. Banter 247

    Banter 247

    374
    Feb 22, 2019
    Initial edge retention test was really bad. Gerald (Outpost76) is a straight shooter and thorough guy. Fixed angle for setting edges, same finish progression, stops the cardboard cuts before contact with a surface, etc.

    I say ‘initial’, because G is very mindful of damage during production sharpening, so he typically goes sharpen -> test/repeat, until the results stop improving and he gets repeated results. For example, the 62hrc PM2 got consecutive results within a few feet of each other at the end.

    I’m not sure where he was at in the progression through his process.

    I have suggested that any related LS tests might be good to see as live-streams, for transparency. I believe he’s on board if time permits.
     
    miso2 and Cosmodragoon like this.
  16. b00n

    b00n Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 15, 2016
    G10 coarseness. :eek:
     
  17. Cosmodragoon

    Cosmodragoon

    325
    Jan 1, 2019
    A few mistakes were made but that shouldn't diminish all the good work done by LTK and friends on this project. Remember, these are volunteers. I don't think this project was initially planned for the scope it has now. I remember when LTK first started having knives tested. The big deal then was whether certain budget brands were actually using the steel stamped on the blade. It seems to have grown organically and now, a bunch of people are contributing all sorts of data and lots of people are watching.

    Honestly, I'd be surprised if mistakes weren't made. This is a learning process. It's sad that it caused trouble for anyone but hopefully, the new steps being adopted will prevent future mishaps without compromising the mission here. As more anomalous results roll in, we'll see how it goes. In the meantime, it looks like LTK is legitimately sorry for any problems this caused and I think he feels pretty bad about it. I hope people don't hold it against him because the work he and the team are doing here is groundbreaking.
     
    willc and miso2 like this.
  18. Sulaco

    Sulaco Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 15, 2003
    I skipped from page five to here, page 21. I read MOST of the stuff on pages one through fourish. I don't have the luxury of time it would take to read it all.

    I just wanted to add that as I was reading this, I kept thinking about the Lionsteel roundhead I got from Mike, and the M4 I got from Mike, both in M390, that hold a fantastic edge. What's that compared to? The other knives I own which are mostly Spydercos, GECs, SAKs, Moras (actually, my Kansbol holds a mean edge for such a "cheap" steel), Fiddlebacks, Enzos and Protechs. Which of those hold the best edge? Spydercos. But that probably has more to do with edge geometry than hardness or steel type. At least that's the feeling I get using them all. And I do use them all. A lot.

    If Lionsteel comes out with another knife pattern I like and it happens to be in M390, I'll buy it. Glad to see some of my findings are also the findings of other people who actually use knives as opposed to looking at them and "testing" them. Seriously guys, step away from your keyboard, go outside, and cut something.
     
    attila. and craytab like this.
  19. unwisefool

    unwisefool Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 22, 2007
    I can tell you my m390 blade has never dulled or failed a cutting test. I have also never actually cut anything with it because it's too pretty and I like to look at it with the door closed and the lights turned low.
     
  20. David Richardson

    David Richardson Gold Member Gold Member

    215
    Nov 30, 2018
    We don't have all the facts. I think we need to assume good intent and behavior from all involved. There could be any number of reasons tests would vary, and unless any of us are experienced hardness testers it's not helpful to speculate.

    Same holds true for commenting on the testing environment. Unless you know a clean environment is required for HRC testing please don't speculate. I worked in a toolmaking shop for 10 years. It was dirty. No way around it. We had a hardness tester that was less dirty but certainly not clean. It seemed to pass periodic calibration testing.
     
    jux t, danbot and tomhosang like this.

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