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Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by Cosmodragoon, Jun 11, 2019.
Didn't I tell ya?
I wonder what the next big dust up will be over.
Stain-ability of Micarta?
Being impermeable or not greatly affects its performance. At least significantly enough to start a thread about it.
I really feel like we all just got distracted and should take up our pitchforks and torches and go back after Benchmade for 55 HRC Bailouts. #withinspec #fieldsharpenable
You can state that someone has inconsistencies in their posts, but you have to quote them and prove the inconsistency. You have to demonstrate that the facts were twisted. To call someone a liar without offering proof will get you an infraction. This is your only warning on this. You pull that crap again and you will achieve a 20 point warning for insulting someone, calling them a liar, and harming their business. Got that now?
Already posted it.
I've still no idea why my Roundhead would never hold a fine edge. Weird world out there.
The HRc must be 42.
But seriously, LTK claimed that the edge retention of Shuffler was very bad in their cutting test, which was consistent with their hardness data at the time.
I asked him what is his take on the cutting test now, but his comment was "no comment".
I am wondering whether the cutting test was biased by the hardness result, or they are just independent.
That was my exact thought as well. If the blade tested at 58.5/59.1 HRC (I can't remember which number it was between those 2), the cutting performance is a mere fraction of what it should be for M390 of that hardness. All this is subjective and reliant on it being heat treated correctly and that the edge isn't burnt, though. Just seems like there was a giant snowball rolling down at lionsteel and M390 in general, and now that a blade that's ~59 HRC is performing like 8cr13mov when no cut tests of M390 of any hardness has performed that bad in the past, one has to question what went wrong in said cut test(s) and if the people performing said cut tests have eliminated the correct variables to get as close an apples to apples comparison as they can. That's an equally important factor in all of this. Cedric and Ada, for example, has tested a fair amount of M390 and it's siblings, and none of them have performed poorly. I'd imagine they would all test in the 58-60 HRC range as well, given that almost all M390 knives tested so far are hitting that mark.
All sorts of bias in testing. Good reason for blind and double blind testing.
I'm glad to hear the wonky numbers being reported apparently were wrong.
That said, I still doubt it would make much practical difference for the vast majority of users whether their pocket knife's blade was ZDP-189 @HRC 67 or VG-10 @HRC 57.
Bah. LionSteel Best Man just went on my birthday wish list.
Initial edge retention test was really bad. Gerald (Outpost76) is a straight shooter and thorough guy. Fixed angle for setting edges, same finish progression, stops the cardboard cuts before contact with a surface, etc.
I say ‘initial’, because G is very mindful of damage during production sharpening, so he typically goes sharpen -> test/repeat, until the results stop improving and he gets repeated results. For example, the 62hrc PM2 got consecutive results within a few feet of each other at the end.
I’m not sure where he was at in the progression through his process.
I have suggested that any related LS tests might be good to see as live-streams, for transparency. I believe he’s on board if time permits.
A few mistakes were made but that shouldn't diminish all the good work done by LTK and friends on this project. Remember, these are volunteers. I don't think this project was initially planned for the scope it has now. I remember when LTK first started having knives tested. The big deal then was whether certain budget brands were actually using the steel stamped on the blade. It seems to have grown organically and now, a bunch of people are contributing all sorts of data and lots of people are watching.
Honestly, I'd be surprised if mistakes weren't made. This is a learning process. It's sad that it caused trouble for anyone but hopefully, the new steps being adopted will prevent future mishaps without compromising the mission here. As more anomalous results roll in, we'll see how it goes. In the meantime, it looks like LTK is legitimately sorry for any problems this caused and I think he feels pretty bad about it. I hope people don't hold it against him because the work he and the team are doing here is groundbreaking.
I skipped from page five to here, page 21. I read MOST of the stuff on pages one through fourish. I don't have the luxury of time it would take to read it all.
I just wanted to add that as I was reading this, I kept thinking about the Lionsteel roundhead I got from Mike, and the M4 I got from Mike, both in M390, that hold a fantastic edge. What's that compared to? The other knives I own which are mostly Spydercos, GECs, SAKs, Moras (actually, my Kansbol holds a mean edge for such a "cheap" steel), Fiddlebacks, Enzos and Protechs. Which of those hold the best edge? Spydercos. But that probably has more to do with edge geometry than hardness or steel type. At least that's the feeling I get using them all. And I do use them all. A lot.
If Lionsteel comes out with another knife pattern I like and it happens to be in M390, I'll buy it. Glad to see some of my findings are also the findings of other people who actually use knives as opposed to looking at them and "testing" them. Seriously guys, step away from your keyboard, go outside, and cut something.
I can tell you my m390 blade has never dulled or failed a cutting test. I have also never actually cut anything with it because it's too pretty and I like to look at it with the door closed and the lights turned low.
We don't have all the facts. I think we need to assume good intent and behavior from all involved. There could be any number of reasons tests would vary, and unless any of us are experienced hardness testers it's not helpful to speculate.
Same holds true for commenting on the testing environment. Unless you know a clean environment is required for HRC testing please don't speculate. I worked in a toolmaking shop for 10 years. It was dirty. No way around it. We had a hardness tester that was less dirty but certainly not clean. It seemed to pass periodic calibration testing.