production vs midtech+

dubya3

dubya3

Joined
Apr 27, 2015
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537
I'm not trying to start an argument, just curious if im in the minority here. Spyderco,Benchmade and ZT can put out very nice, high quality folders with S90V, M390 or other premium steels and many times with CF and/or Titanium for around $200. These may be production models but there's no argument they aren't top notch. Now, looking at other "high end" production companies, many use D2, Elmax or S35VN which are all considered lower end premium steels currently and there are a lot of knives from those companies with G10 and one of those steels pushing $500. What gives? Doesn't it get to a point that you're paying for a name? Why pass up CF and S90V at half the price when both knives are as smooth as the other and lock up just as solid? I get wanting the exclusive name's but is there really an advantage?
 
dubya3 said:
I'm not trying to start an argument, just curious if im in the minority here. Spyderco,Benchmade and ZT can put out very nice, high quality folders with S90V, M390 or other premium steels and many times with CF and/or Titanium for around $200. These may be production models but there's no argument they aren't top notch. Now, looking at other "high end" production companies, many use D2, Elmax or S35VN which are all considered lower end premium steels currently and there are a lot of knives from those companies with G10 and one of those steels pushing $500. What gives? Doesn't it get to a point that you're paying for a name? Why pass up CF and S90V at half the price when both knives are as smooth as the other and lock up just as solid? I get wanting the exclusive name's but is there really an advantage?
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Some specific examples would aid the discussion, if you have any in mind.
 
Well you can look at Microtech, Brous, CRK, Medford, Strider. Why can basic companies put out a $200 knife with top of the line steel and materials but the higher end production is twice as much, or more, with lesser materials. I've handled and owned many different brands and I don't see the extra cost. ZT makes a better flipper than most I've tried and they're relatively cheap.
 
You are paying for more than he name. Smaller companies with smaller production, generally better tolerances, fit and finish. I can't ever remember hearing of a crk with a bad heat treat, uneven rind, I off Center blade. Materials are purchased in much smaller quantities which costs more, which is why they come in less expensive steels. Super steels require much more expensive tooling to process.
 
dubya3 said:
Well you can look at Microtech, Brous, CRK, Medford, Strider. Why can basic companies put out a $200 knife with top of the line steel and materials but the higher end production is twice as much, or more, with lesser materials. I've handled and owned many different brands and I don't see the extra cost. ZT makes a better flipper than most I've tried and they're relatively cheap.
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You're going to need to be more specific than that, as in, comparing a specific knife to a specific knife.
 
dubya3 said:
There are numerous models you can compare. Use your imagination and Google.
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I'm not going to come up with an example for you. You brought up the topic. K.O.D. already explained in general terms why some companies' knives can cost more than other companies' knives. If you want to get any more specific than that, then come up with an example that can be discussed in more detail.
 
K.O.D. said:
You are paying for more than he name. Smaller companies with smaller production, generally better tolerances, fit and finish. I can't ever remember hearing of a crk with a bad heat treat, uneven rind, I off Center blade. Materials are purchased in much smaller quantities which costs more, which is why they come in less expensive steels. Super steels require much more expensive tooling to process.
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True but you kick up production and nobody is going to have 100% quality. Of about 40 folders (mainly BKC and Spyderco) I've had one bad knife that had to be sent back otherwise all were near perfect or better. I get the costs may be higher for a smaller company but why are they held in higher regard than the others when they can't give the same materials for twice the price? It's nice to have variety and new designs but I'm not seeing where a microtech DOC for $300 is anywhere near the quality of any ZT (and far worse customer service from what I've heard), or a Medford 187 with thumb hold G10 and D2 compared to a Military CF/Titanium and S90V framelock for $100 less (when they come out). Just wondering where the value is and if I'm alone here, which it seems.
 
brancron said:
I'm not going to come up with an example for you. You brought up the topic. K.O.D. already explained in general terms why some companies' knives can cost more than other companies' knives. If you want to get any more specific than that, then come up with an example that can be discussed in more detail.
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It's pretty easy to make the comparisons but you obviously want me to do it so I'll make a nice list for you tomorrow when I get a chance after work.
 
dubya3 said:
It's pretty easy to make the comparisons but you obviously want me to do it so I'll make a nice list for you tomorrow when I get a chance after work.
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Just one example as a starting point for specific discussion would be enough. I'm not trying to derail your post, I'm trying to help it along, and I think that pointing out two comparable knives that exemplify the issue you bring up would get things going nicely.
 
dubya3 said:
It's pretty easy to make the comparisons but you obviously want me to do it so I'll make a nice list for you tomorrow when I get a chance after work.
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I just saw that you made some specific comparisons in the post above. Thanks, that was all I was looking for. Unfortunately I have to go to bed now, so will be back later, but you do bring up a good point.
 
I've owned a lot of knives over the last thirty years, and without a doubt had more issues with production than midtech. Benchmade being the most consistently bad--off center, bad heat treat, uneven grinds. ZT's with major centering issues. Spyderco has been the best production. My Strider, sebenza, Brian Tighe, Southern Grind, LionSteel, Brous, were all perfect.
 
Let's make an obvious comparison XM 18 and ZT 0562, what do you get for double the cost? What about a Spyderco Southard vs a Tolk or Avo (I like the Tolk best out of these so I'll be a bit Biased). Fit and finish, warranty (this could be debated I know), direct contact from well trained craftsman (or sometimes the maker), unique or limited piece, comfort and durability (in regards to the xm vs 0562), I too have had many knives and will say with confidence that my Ferox is one of the most well executed hard use knives I've ever had. Now maybe your question is does it cut better for all that extra and really the answer is no but it's no for almost anything above say $100 or maybe less. You could ask does a 0300 really outperform a Rat Model 1 or Cold Steel Recon 1. BTW this thread has given me a good video idea so thanks to the O.P.
 
The best phrase I can use to describe high-end productions versus midtechs is "gray area". High-end production knives are so well made these days (and so expensive, I might add) that, for my money, I tend to skip right over midtechs and go straight from high-end productions to full customs. If I'm going to pay the big bucks, I'm going to get exactly what I want. YMMV
 
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dubya3 said:
I'm not trying to start an argument, just curious if im in the minority here. Spyderco,Benchmade and ZT can put out very nice, high quality folders with S90V, M390 or other premium steels and many times with CF and/or Titanium for around $200. These may be production models but there's no argument they aren't top notch. Now, looking at other "high end" production companies, many use D2, Elmax or S35VN which are all considered lower end premium steels currently and there are a lot of knives from those companies with G10 and one of those steels pushing $500. What gives? Doesn't it get to a point that you're paying for a name? Why pass up CF and S90V at half the price when both knives are as smooth as the other and lock up just as solid? I get wanting the exclusive name's but is there really an advantage?
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Kind of a broad question really.

What is that you really want to know?

Seems more like a money issue from what I am reading.

With some of the higher end folders there is a lot of hand fitting due to the tighter tolerances than the standard production knives.
 
I see this as another version of knife users vs. knife collectors.

As an average user, mid tech is pointless as are most customs.
As an average collector, well there is no average collector everything from $20-$30 kershaw collectors to collectors who only buy Randall etc.

Based on the question asked, stick to superior goods at the lower cost.
 
Skimo said:
Based on the question asked, stick to superior goods at the lower cost.
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There you go. :thumbup: Of course, the only way to know which goods are superior and which have the lower cost is to do your homework. And that's where a forum like ours comes in to play. :)

The other piece of advice I'd give is, after you've done your homework, don't procrastinate. Set a budget and then buy the best knife you can afford. If you don't, it will be more expensive tomorrow . . . well, unless it's a Buck 110. ;)
 
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People bring up the Hinderer vs ZT. I believe the MSRP for an XM-18 direct from the factory is $385, maybe more, its been a year since I've checked. However, with low production and high demand has allowed retailers to inflate prices far higher than what it would cost to get one from the factory, which is rare. When a ZT 0560 retailed for $260 before it was discontinued, and additional $125 for exclusivity isn't that much of a stretch, even if its very difficult to get one at that price.

Not all midtech's are worth their price imo, but many are.

In talking with Jim Allen of Three Sisters Forge last year when I ordered my Beast, I asked him why the change from M390 to CPM-S35VN. He said, as has been mentioned by others on the forum, that between the cost to purchase and the difficulty working with it, his options were to switch to a different steel or raise prices.
 
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Yep. But I'm not sure I'd recommend an XM-18 to folks unless they knew in advance what to expect. Once again, there's just no substitute for doing your homework. And then there's the thorny problem of what defines a midtech. For me, Hinderer knives are production knives as are Chris Reeve knives and William Henry Knives. But people draw their distinctions as they will.
 
bld522 said:
Yep. But I'm not sure I'd recommend an XM-18 to folks unless they knew in advance what to expect. Once again, there's just no substitute for doing your homework. And then there's the thorny problem of what defines a midtech. For me, Hinderer knives are production knives as are Chris Reeve knives and William Henry Knives. But people draw their distinctions as they will.
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I tend to think about shop vs factory hand assembled vs production line, have human hands touched my blade? How would you class a Pretorian?
 
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