Proper quench techniques........

D

Dixieblade57

Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
1,361
This thread has arisen out of a discussion on another forum over quench procedures for 1080. While I am still new at the knife business and still learning I felt that I had the quench procedure correct in my mind. However after discussion with this person I find myself scratching my head and asking if I am correct in my procedures. I am not trying to start a war over procedures I am just looking for guidance as to what works and why!!!!!!!:)

I am going to present the two different views here and not reveal my thoughts so as not to influence your decision in this discussion.


1. When quenching a blade made of 1080 in oil. You should......

A. Plunge the blade vertically, quickly all the way to the hilt, to get an even hardening.

B. Lower blade some what horizontally allowing the blades edge, to contact the quench oil with a two second count and then submerging entire blade.

C. None of the above and you must explain what you feel the correct procedure is for an oil quench and why.

2. When quenching a blade in water or brine. You should......

A. Plunge the blade vertically, quickly all the way to the hilt, to get an even hardening.

B. Lower blade some what horizontally allowing the blades edge, to contact the water or brine with a two second count and then submerging entire blade.

C. None of the above and you must explain what you feel the correct procedure is for a water or brine quench and why.

I am trying to make this simple, however if your ideas don't fit into the questions posed, please feel free to share your thoughts. All I ask is for you to give a little insight into what supports your procedures on quenching in different mediums!
 
Last edited:
It all depends on your school of thought. The fully submerge method (whether vertical or horizontal) will acheive a full-hard blade with uniform internal structure that can be differentially tempered if you like.

If you submerge the edge for a few seconds and then the whole blade will get you (probably) a full hard edge and mix of pearlite and other stuff in the rest of the blade. The reason I threw in probably there is that the rest of the blade acts as a heat-sink and will bleed heat into the edge area, though many makers do just an edge quench.

I say, if you want to keep it simple, just submerge the entire blade (vertically or horizontally) and agitate. You will acheive a more uniform hardness and convert the entire blank to martensite. Then, after your tempering cycles, take a torch and heat the handle/spine of the blade while keeping the edge submerged in water to draw back the temper (heat to or past purple oxidation color, but don't get it glowing).

Just my $.02

--nathan
 
No one else brave enough to step in to this one?

After consideration and speaking to a few others, I am not sure there is a right or a wrong but I feel discussion brings out the information for others to filter through! :)

Anyone want to talk about there method of quench?

plunge, controlled, vertical horizontal, etc,etc........?
 
Last edited:
2. When quenching a blade in water or brine. You should......

C. Pray . Agitate.. Interrupt at about MS..
 
I agree with Nathan... Many makers seem to be successful with edge quenching. Personally I would rather have a homogenous martensitic mass to work with. Temper the entire piece and draw back the spine if I feel it needs to be really tough.

My quench tank is an 8" x 34" long vertical tube and my movement is that of churning butter.

My quench oil is Houghton Quench K... infused with just the right amount of retired performer dolphin semen... cause I read it on the internet.

Rick
 
The "proper quench techniques"..........to achieve what? With what?
Sort of like asking for the best way to land a Lear Jet.
Loaded? Empty? Daytime? Night time? In the rain? With the wind? Against the wind? Instruments only? Fully manual? Etc.
Quenching blade steels - or ANY steels as far as that goes - depends entirely upon steel types, the condition in which you have placed the steel, what steps it has gone through up to this point, and the result you desire with the materials/quenchants/heat sources/etc. that are available.
You are sort of asking a question that can't be answered outside of a three day weekend seminar.
 
In water or brine I would plunge the blade in up to the ricasso and agitate, Probably in brine I would use an interrupted quench but that would depend on the edge thickness - leave it thick for brine. If I wanted a differentially hardened blade I would use clay - I'm not a big fan of the hardening line that you get with edge quenches.
 
Karl I have the upmost respect for you and since I did start this thread perhaps I should respond to you.
Karl B. Andersen said:
The "proper quench techniques"..........to achieve what? With what?

The orgional thread was speaking of using 1080.

Sort of like asking for the best way to land a Lear Jet.
Loaded? Empty? Daytime? Night time? In the rain? With the wind? Against the wind? Instruments only? Fully manual? Etc.

Sorry I don't know anything about Lear Jets and I am still learning about steel which I make knives from!


Quenching blade steels - or ANY steels as far as that goes - depends entirely upon steel types, the condition in which you have placed the steel, what steps it has gone through up to this point,

As pointed out I was refering to 1080. Now athis next part may show my newbie ignorance but I was refering to a forged blade normalized X3. Once normalized X3 I am ASS U ME ing that should put it fairly close back into the same state as a reduction blade.

and the result you desire with the materials/quenchants/heat sources/etc. that are available.

The result for me is always to produce the best blade I can. I feel any blade should have some flex but not be soft. It should hold an edge but not be so hard as it will not sharpen without the Four Horseman of mythology having to run it back and forth over a stone for forty day and forthy nights! In short I try to keep it fairly simple. The quenchants I discussed were at the top of the page. When I say oil I refer to a proper quenchant, and yes I know that in itself is a quagmire, so I left it very broad. Brine and water I thought were more forthcoming.

You are sort of asking a question that can't be answered outside of a three day weekend seminar.
Click to expand...

I have a knack for asking such questions but I look at it like this. Before I had to retire from construction I had a knowledge of the construction field that took me nearly forty year of hard knocks to acquire. I started when I was 14yrs. of age.
I don't have that long to learn anymore. So forgive me if I have learned over the years when you don't know; ask. Oh sure you can blunder along blindly and you may or may not figure it out. You can find someone that knows and watch them. Or you can ask dumb questions in hopes of knocking some of the learning curve off of the game. I guess that is the postion I find myself in at this point.
I didn't get into this to become rich or famous but I do hope before I leave this world that I will at least left another piece of myself behind that some day someone will pick up and say, "I don't know who the hell C Craft was but he made a pretty damn good knife"1 :D

Thanks to all who have replied to this thread! I have looked for info at the top as well. I am trying to pick all of your brains to impart a little knowledge into mine. I am realizing that the more I get into this knifemaking there is "not a one size fits all" answer to all questions. But each time I ask a question on this forum I learn. Sometimes it's not to ask that question, but I learn! So do many others who glean the pages of these forums for each little tibit of knowledge that they might pick up!
I guess my whole intent was to bring out the difference in the schools of thought as too what you accomplish by vertical plunge into different quenches mentioned above and what is accomplished a somewhat horizontal plunge into the the different quenches mentioned. Which is better and why or like I said C. none of the above and why.

Dixieblade57
AKA
C Craft
 
Last edited:
Hello Dixie. Like Karl says it depends on what you are going for.
For question 1:
Depends on wether you want a hardening line or not or if you want a fully hardened blade. Personally most of the time for myself I use clay coating and a quick oil ( parks 50), I like hamons. For you I would go for submerging the whole blade. Don't worry about hardening lines just work on getting a good serviceable blade. Use an oil quench unless you like hearing funny pinging noises coming from your blade. Brine and water will work, but you have to have really good temp control and even then you can still get cracked blades. If you do not have a fast quench oil you can use olive oil or light mineral oil heated to 120-140 degrees.
For question 2:
See above.
1080 is a good steel to start with wethter forging or stock removal and will make a very good blade. Sounds like you are on the right track.
Best of luck
 
Dixieblade57 said:
I have a knack for asking such questions but I look at it like this. Before I had to retire from construction I had a knowledge of the construction field that took me nearly forty year of hard knocks to acquire. I started when I was 14yrs. of age.
I don't have that long to learn anymore. So forgive me if I have learned over the years when you don't know; ask. Oh sure you can blunder along blindly and you may or may not figure it out. You can find someone that knows and watch them. Or you can ask dumb questions in hopes of knocking some of the learning curve off of the game. I guess that is the postion I find myself in at this point.
I didn't get into this to become rich or famous but I do hope before I leave this world that I will at least left another piece of myself behind that some day someone will pick up and say, "I don't know who the hell C Craft was but he made a pretty damn good knife"1 :D

Thanks to all who have replied to this thread! I have looked for info at the top as well. I am trying to pick all of your brains to impart a little knowledge into mine. I am realizing that the more I get into this knifemaking there is "not a one size fits all" answer to all questions. But each time I ask a question on this forum I learn. Sometimes it's not to ask that question, but I learn! So do many others who glean the pages of these forums for each little tibit of knowledge that they might pick up!

Dixieblade57
AKA
C Craft
Click to expand...


Very well said.
The whole reason that I opened this thread to read it was because it was about quenching 1080. Which is what I have been using. I was hoping to learn something else from the answers you got.
As for me, I am doing stock removal, after normalizing x3 I quench the whole blade edge first, hold for a bit and agitate.
 
Hay Dixie,
I know you are a simi-newb And I know what you are after, been there, done that.
On 1075/1080, 1084, 01, I plunge complete and agitate up and down. always come up with no less than 63 rc then draw back to 57-59 rc.
This works very good for the hunters and skinners that I make.

I talked to my nephew who is a pilot and asked him what kind of oil
thay use in his lear jet and he said,canola. ha-ha
 
The question is too open ended to have a direct answer.....so I'll respond to the issue of quenching 1080 .

1080 is a eutectoid steel, meaning that it has exactly the right mix of carbon and iron to allow the matrix to form with no excess or shortage of carbon to fill the boxes formed by the iron. This allows austinitization at the lowest possible temperature. This also means it does not need any soak time beyond full and even heating, and that quenching should be fairly simple. Being a fast quench steel, if should not be quenched in any manner that slows down the process. The small amount of alloy ingredients in most 1080 are to refine the grain and slightly increase hardenability....both desirable things.

The purpose of a quench, if the desired result is a cutting tool, is to fully convert the blade to hard martensite that can be reliably tempered to a target hardness and toughness. Any attempt to get any other structure, or combination of structures, is for non-tool purposes....usually asthetic..... but not functional. A fully hardened, martensitic blade is going to give you the most 1080 can offer. You will read many reasons for edge quenching, clay coating, about battonning blades, etc. but the truth is that a properly tempered blade of martensite will perform as well or better.

Fast Oil is the preferred media for quenching 1080. It will drop the temperature of the austinitized steel below the pearlite nose quick enough to convert nearly all the steel to martensite. That is all you need to do. The way to reliably do that is to plunge the blade directly into a sufficient volume of quenchant, agitate in a fore-and-aft manner ( never side to side), and keep the blade in the quenchant for long enough to assure the steel has dropped below 800F. After a quick check for straightness ( fix the warps quickly before the blade reaches 400F), the blade should be put back in the oil to cool to below 200F and then allowed to air cool to room temperature. Tempering should immediately follow quench. Using these methods will give you a blade with the maximum percentage of martensite at full hardness. Quenching at an angle, interrupted quenches, edge quenches, etc. will all work to some degree, but will not achieve the same degree of control and quality.

Tempering was left out of the questions, and this is where the blade is molded into its functional abilities. As quenched, a blade will be of little use beyond straight razors and microtome blades ( and not perfect for those either). The newly formed hard martensite is too brittle to be used without cracking ( often while sitting there undistrurbed) or chipping. The temper should be high enough to drop the hardness enough to still have a wear resistant ( hard) blade, but increase the toughness ( for edge and blade durability). If the blade is to be used in rough use, like a camp knife that will be battonned, the spine can be drawn to a much lower hardness, and correspondingly higher toughness, by controlled heating of the spine and bevels, without heating the edge above the original temper temperature. This is most easily accomplished with placing the edge in a pan with 1/4" of water and heating the spine with a torch to the desired temperature. Observation of surface colors is usually sufficient to do this.

So if you want a box checked for the first question....it would be "A"

As to water/brine quenching 1080. it can be used, but with the huge difference in length to thickness ratio on a knife blade, warping is a real risk....as is cracking. There are some reasons to water quench 1080 blades, but as said in the previous paragraph, they are mainly for aesthetic purposes.

So if you need a box checked for which procedure is best for a water quench, it is "A" again, but my personal answer would be "C".

Stacy
 
Like said before I think it depends on what you want.

I myself prefer a blade fuly hardend thats been differentially temperd. Ive bent a quite big blade in testing that was edge quenched and that sort of put me off a bit, also when you batto a blade through say an oak log if the spine is soft it wil defrom much quicker than if its been hardned and temperd to a srping temper. But like I said it depends.

Jamie

Sorry about the spellings mistakes my laptops shagged from spilling tea on it so I cant go back and correct stuff that easily.
 
I think the basic question is edge quench versus full quench in which case, as a functional tool it may or may not make any difference one way or the other depending on an infinite number of variables. We could theorize, fantasize and idealize about all the possible types of stresses any given knife could go through, but I don’t see the point of doing that. The one thing for sure is that everything else being equal, the two will have different overall properties. As an aesthetic consideration, it’s also equally debatable. The “concept” of the knife dictates the considerations that need to be made,… and from that standpoint there is no proper or improper way to do it.
 
Thank you Stacy! I guess when I formed this question I left a lot unsaid and perhaps left the question quite vague to some and to locked into an A. B. or C. scenario. However I felt C. left a lot of room for those who wanted it.

You see I am still in that vague region of knife making. I am still trying to refine a technique that I have only experimented with and achieved what I considered acceptable results. Now does that mean I have produced a piece that is the absolute best piece out there that can be produced from 1080?

No, not till I die or get to old to do this will I stop learning about using any steel as a knife. There is never a day that I sign on here that I don't glean something from the information being disseminated on this forum.

This whole question arose from the actual quench procedure of 1080 that I got into a discussion on another forum with a fellow maker. His statement was that he would lower the blade into his quench of choice (oil) at a slightly off horizontal position and let it flame for the 2sec. count and then plunge under the oil.
I disagreed with his procedure and stated with 1080 the best result was to plunge at a near vertical position and hold for 2 - 4 sec and check for and fix warpage fix and requench.

His thought process for the procedure was he was getting the drawback theory of torch in his quench.
My thought process for the procedure was that he was not getting the steel cooled quick enough to form the right grain structure and that if he wanted later he good do a torch drawback to soften the spine.

And yes I do understand the HT makes and breaks the quality of the blade. In fact I understand that each part of the procedure can make or break the quality of the blade. That is why I was trying to clarify the procedure on quenching 1080 without really spilling the beans so to speak on how it should be done.

As far as the info I was trying to bring out in this thread, I think Stacy hit the nail on the head when he said,
QUOTE:
The purpose of a quench, if the desired result is a cutting tool, is to fully convert the blade to hard martensite that can be reliably tempered to a target hardness and toughness. Any attempt to get any other structure, or combination of structures, is for non-tool purposes....usually asthetic..... but not functional. A fully hardened, martensitic blade is going to give you the most 1080 can offer. You will read many reasons for edge quenching, clay coating, about battonning blades, etc. but the truth is that a properly tempered blade of martensite will perform as well or better.

My thanks to all who have participated in this thread. I view this forum as one more learning tool in my arsenal and do appreciate the feedback. I also must understand when I leave a broad interruption of the question like I did I tend to rile the ire of some. As you can see there was a method to my madness though. I did not want to in any way infulence what was being said.

I shall do my best to let this thread die now as I feel it has served a purpose!

Sorry, I have corrected the word. Sometimes my fingers and brain are not thinking of the same word. After all I barely passed typing years ago and never touched a PC till I was in my forties.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top