property dispute with my neighbor

shootist16

shootist16

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I'm going through a property dispute with my neighbor. Talk about stressful.

Anyway. My back yard runs into my neighbors side yard. I'm on a corner lot and he is behind me. He started building a koi pond beside his house. Its going to be 4 feet deep and its about 20 feet wide. I thought he was building it very close to the property line (I just bought the house less than a year ago). he then started building a waterfall that was about five feet tall and eight feet long. We decided we would have a privacy fence installed. Several reasons in addition to the pond. He lets his dogs use my yard as a toilet and his kids act like my back yard is theirs. Basically the whole family treats my yard like it belongs to them. the guy I bought the house from said he had problems with them mowing a portion of the yard that wasn't theirs.


Thursday the fence guy came out and found the property pins. Guess what? The entire waterfall was in my yard and a small portion of the pond. he has the pond outlined with cinder blocks. The cinder blocks on the side closest to me are on my property. I approached my neighbor Friday and told him that part of the structure was on me. He said he didn't think so and pulled the property pin out of the ground when I showed it to him. Funny though that he has a flower bed in the front and back that stop exactly at the line. I told him that I would split a survey with him to make sure. A survey is $450. He declined saying he thought he had a few inches to spare. I told him that I was going to have a survey done. I called the survey guy and scheduled it for Monday. Friday evening my wife called me and told me the neighbor was dismantling the waterfall. Seems odd since he was sure it wasn't on him. Fast forward to Monday. The survey verified the location of the pins. I showed my neighbor the stakes, which showed the edge of his pond is on me. Also a ten foot strip of my yard has ruts and no grass from him driving a bobcat on it. He said he didn’t think that was right and the pins don’t “look to be in a straight line. He said he would have a buddy with GPS check it. I told him he would have to get a survey done from a licensed surveyor if he thought it was wrong. Later that evening my neighbor approached me and said that if I pushed the pond issue he would get a “variance” and take two feet of my yard. He said he was told by the county that he could do that. I don’t believe he can do that. I got pretty angry and told him that I am having a fence put up on my side and that I would move anything on my side out of the way to do it.

I ran a string today between the two pins. He had a backhoe attachment for the bobcat parked in my yard. The stakes are in a straight line.

If I put the fence 6” off of the line there will only be about 6-8” of dirt on the pond side. Is that enough to support a 4 x 4 post? Any suggestions on what I should do?
 
That's pretty shitty, man. I don't know your laws, but I'd think about getting a fence put up real quick BEFORE he applies for a variance. Start filling in the pond and continue doing it until he sees that you're not playing his games. Seriously, start filling it in with whatever you need to throw in there to make the point. It sounds like things are going south , so make it a pain the the hole for him to continue pushing. Why not put a "For Sale" sign on the items like the backhoe attachment he's putting on your lawn? Might make him think twice. Regardless of how this turns out, I'd NEVER let him enjoy any piece of pond over onto your property. Ever. Good luck and keep us informed.
 
I think your neighbor is wrong:

A "variance" is an application to build something that's an exception to the building/zoning codes; it has nothing to do with the property lines. You can't get a zoning exception to build on someone elses' land!

A GPS is not accurate enough to define legal land boundaries.

Check your state law regarding the fence. Your neighbor may be financially responsible for half of the cost of the fence, even if he doesn't want one.

Having a pool or pond may be considered an "attractive nuisence", meaning it's your neighbor's legal responsibility to build a fence to keep out trespassers, particularly children.
 
If it were me (lawyer married to a real estate lawyer), I'd get a temporary restraining order to keep the A-hole off your property pending resolution of the dispute, followed by a survey (licensed, accredited surveyor) that you take to a real estate lawyer who files an action to quiet title.

You don't want to play hopscotch with this guy. Surveyor, lawyer, judge, judgment, are what you need. Be proactive and take control of things. Its going to cost you some money, but sitting around doing nothing will cost you even more in the long run. :thumbup:
 
Sorry you're having this trouble.

I have a bit of experience with property lines and surveying, and with soil. It cost thousands of dollars to survey my small ranch btw.

As Bob said, his buddy with the GPS is irrelevant. Even the most accurate GPS, which he surely does not have, is accurate only to a few centimeters because it uses two Sats and one ground station, which on an urban size property is just not enough. I was going to use one too until I figured out how innaccurate they are.

Regarding the fence. It all depends on the ground you have there. 6-8 inches is not much, then again I've seen less. You need to get a geo specialist. A heavy rain and it might all slide into your neighbours yard.
I've worked with 4x4 posts more than I care to remember around here on and off the ranch and I've made over a hundred meters of heavy solid fence, and too many meters of wire fence than I can count. Even when I put them in well I have seen strong winds bend over at the posts, even the ones I put in cement...which I usually do. It all depends how soft your ground is and on the condition of it, due to such things as "compaction" etc. The ground needs to be like a sponge to let the water out and dry the ground to make it healthy and strong. If many people or machinary like a backhoe (or bulls like on my ranch) went over the land the ground will be compacted and very very weak and prone to soil erosion.
I've got about an acres worth of land that just slid down a hill on my property due to too many bulls grazing the area and comacting the ground. Be aware.

Unless his pond is backed up with a thick lining of cement or something similar like a swimming pool you might have potential problems. I'm not sure who's fault it would be though because I don't know American laws anymore.

Good luck in any case. Get specialists and all approvals and certifications from local government and you'll be rock solid legally.
And don't listen to his buddy with the GPS if he comes over.
 
Your neighbor is trying to BS you with his talk of a "variance".
I agree with BobW's variance discussion. A variance does not let you build on someone else's property. A variance allows you to build something that the zoning laws would otherwise not allow such as building a house closer to the edge of your own property (not on someone else's).

Build the fence. Build it solid. Build on your property by 6" and make bloody sure your neighbor does not move the stakes. If your neighbor gives you any further guff, follow powernoodle's advice. But I think he will cave if you just build the fence.
 
What has been said here, about variances, is true. Granting the variance will not result in granting amy special privilege(s) to the property owner (i.e., he's able to take a portion of your property).

Your next door neighbor should have had a survey accomplished to ensure he wasn't encroaching onto your property.

Curious. . . .does your county require permits for building a large fish pond ? It would be interesting to know if the county tax assessors know he placed a large fish pond next to his house. Surely, this would increase his property value, which corresponds to a tax increase. :D
 
Been there, done that, no good solution. Clorox his damn pond some night. Better yet, add detergent and watch the suds. :D
 
shootist16 said:
He said he would have a buddy with GPS check it.
Click to expand...

It is very important to understand how GPS works.

Imagine that you know the location of some point exactly. Imagine that you can measure your distance from that object exactly. Let's say that you measure and determine that your distance is five miles. Now you know that you must be somewhere on a circle of radius five miles centered upon that exactly-located point. That's helpful, but it doesn't tell you where you are. Imagine that you know the exact location of a second point and can also measure your distance from that point; let's say it's eight miles. Now you know that you must be on a circle of radius eight miles with point B as the center. If you're lucky, there will only be one point on the plane of the earth's surface that is five miles from point A and eight miles from point B. BUT, there will probabally actually be two such points. So, we add a third point, point C. Let's say you measure and find out that you're three miles from C. Now, you must be at the one and only point in on the plane that is the surface of the earth that is five miles from A, eight miles from B, and three miles from C.

In GPS, those points are the satellites. A satellite's exact position in orbit can be calculated if you know two things: first, it's Keplerian elements. These are numerical parameters that define its orbit. Second, the exact time of day. Each satellite carries a highly-accurate atomic clock (actually, several) and it broadcasts out the exact time of day.

You may have a watch yourself and you may set it to some "exact" time signal. But, you know what happens over time. Even if your watch is a high-quality quartz watch, it will drift away from the correct time. And the longer you wait to resynchronize it to your "exact" signal, the further off it will get. The atomic clocks on the satelites are highly-accurate, but -- even more importantly -- they are resynchronized to even more accurate clocks several times per day by GPS ground stations.

To make things even better, the clocks on the satellites are watched very closely by ground controllers. Each one has been characterized over its life and it broadcasts its own correction factor. It sends out a message saying, "It's been X minutes since I was last synchronized and I tend to loose/gain Y picoseconds per minute, so you may want to correct accordingly."

So, a ground-based GPS receiver has the time very accurately.

Each Satellite's orbit is also watched carefully by several ground stations. Using these measurments, new Keplerian elements are calculated for each satellite several times per day. Those data are also uploaded to each satellite and each satellite also broadcasts those data out.

Using the time and the Keps (as Keplerian elements are called), your receiver can calculate the location of each satellite very accurately.

Knowing how far you are from each satellite is a bit tricky. But, the clocks on all of the satellites are synchronized but the distance between you and each satellite is different, so you will receive the time hacks from each bird at a different time due to the propagation delay of the signals. Using those differences you can calculate your distance from each bird. And all of that gives you your position. Actually, it gives you two possible positions, but one of them is in outter space, so we discard it (unless you're the Space Shuttle flying above the GPS constilation in which case you use that one and discard the other).

What can possibly go wrong here?

The clocks on the satellites drift. And that drift isn't exactly predictable.

The earth-based clocks used to set the satellite clocks are as good as they can be... but they're not perfect.

The measurements of the satellites' orbits and the resulting keps are as good as they can be made, but not perfect. Furthermore, the satellites constantly move around in their orbits. No sooner has a ground station measured the Keps and updated them than some bit of space dust hits the satellite and alters its orbit just a tiey tiny bit. The earth's gravitational field changes minute-to-minute unpredictably -- not much, but enough to affect those Keps.

And, usually worst of all, the velocity of propagation of the radio signals through the earth's atmosphere depends on the exact composition of the earth's atmophere which changes constantly and unpredictably and depends on exactly where you are.

The result is that the locations determined by typical consumer GPS receivers are +/- about ten feet at best. Your dispute with your neighbor is on the order of about ten feet. So, a consumer GPS receiver is utterly useless in this dispute.

Surveyor do use GPS receivers. But, their receivers have a few optional extras installed. First, consumer receivers usually use only three or four satellites. There are as many as eight in view in North America at a time. Using the extra satellites sends the computational complexity skyrocketting especially as you try to assess the probablity of each satellite's data being better than the others.

Second, surveyor's GPS receivers usually use time-averaging. They measure a point's location perhaps ten times per second over perhaps as long as 24 hours. But, it's not a simple as averaging the position because the position is determined from the data. So, you have to aveage the data and, gain, you have to factor in the "quality" of each measurement. For example, data received from a satellite that is very low on the horizon had to travel through a lot more atmosphere to get to you than data from a satellite that's directly over head, so it's of lesser quality because its propagation speed is less-accurately known. So, this "averaging" is actually a very complex algorithm, so complex, in fact, that the receivers don't actually do it; they just collect the data and the data are then downloaded into some supercomputer which crunches the numbers later.

The final technique Surveyor's use is "differential GPS." They survey a point very accurately and then mount a GPS receiver at that point. The difference between where that receiver is actually mounted and where that receiver thinks it is is then broadcast out to other GPS receivers in the area. If those receivers will subtract that error off of their readings, then they'll have more accurate results. Very often, the exactly-located points are cellular towers. To get these broadcasts of error information, you have to buy a subscription. Most consumer GPS receivers aren't even equipped to receive differential correction data. Aircraft GPS receivers are equipped to receive DGPS corrections and all major airports have DGPS stations. But, if you're not within a few miles of the airport, those data aren't useful to you.



I told him he would have to get a survey done from a licensed surveyor if he thought it was wrong. Later that evening my neighbor approached me and said that if I pushed the pond issue he would get a “variance” and take two feet of my yard. He said he was told by the county that he could do that. I don’t believe he can do that. I got pretty angry and told him that I am having a fence put up on my side and that I would move anything on my side out of the way to do it.

Any suggestions on what I should do?
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A "variance" has nothing to do with property lines. A variance is when the city says something like, "normally, you can't build a permanent structure closer than six feet to the property line, but, because your neighbor agrees and because his house is well over six feet from the line, we'll go ahead and let you build within five feet this time."

But, a variance doesn't move the property line.

Your neighbor is obviously not a nice person. Hire a real estate lawyer to write your neighbor a "cease and desist" letter. In a case like this where you've hired a licensed surveyor and got a licensed survey done, the lawyer should have no trouble banging this letter out for a $100-200.
 
One other thing to check into for your area: Are there any "squatters" or upkeep/ownership laws? There are still some areas in the US where by maintaining and improving another individuals' property, you can actually make claim to it! I think you have to let the owner know what you're doing and they have to not do anything about it, but you need to consult a real-estate lawyer NOW! Check your local code and ordinance for the clearance you need to have from the property line for your fence. If you can build a fence directly on the line, build it there. If you put it 6" back, you're essentially giving the neighbor that 6".
 
wow guys, great advice.

Let me ask one more thing. If I build the fence 6" off of the line the fence is mine. If I build on the line its community property? Say I build 6" off the line I assume that 6" is still mine? What to do if he puts part of the pond on that 6"? Will that cause me problems down the road if I go to sell? I know its only 6", but I don't want to give up anything I bought. Sure don't want problems down the road.

He did not get any permits to build this. He didn't get approval from the homeowners association either. He should've gotten a survey done. I called the county and advised that he didn't get a permit. The person I talked to seemed to think he didn't need one because a pond is landscaping and not a structure.

I've already got my survey done and approval by the HOA. The fence company is getting the permit, and we had the utilities marked.
 
I really think that the next step is a lawyer, and you should consult one sooner rather than later. A real estate lawyer in your town would know all of the property laws and be able to advise you. I know that it's a pain, and expensive, but you will sure sleep better at night.

Best of luck to you.
 
He should have tried for a variance when he wanted to build his pond to close to the property line,to try and get one now and especially to try to take part of your property,they would just laugh at him and tell him to repair the damage that he has caused to your property.He is liable for that,if you hire a lawyer it should only be to recover damages to your property,you don't need to incur any extra expense,he would be responsible for your lawyers fees if he is found to be in the wrong,which you say he is.As far as the fence,I would wait until you get him to repair your property,then find out what you zoning setback is and put the fence as close as possible,most times fences are right on the line because technically,your responsible for anything you leave on his side,if he doesn't mow it,you would have to trim a 6in strip on his side.The other thing is the fact of trying to dig holes for posts to close to his hole,it won't work and you will end up with a mess,get him to repair your yard first.Another issue is,if his pond is deep enough for a child to drown in,he could be required to put a fence around it,if you push that issue with zoning,he is fighting a loosing battle.
 
You're on the right track. Good thing you jumped right on it and went for a fence.

My dad had a neighbor who had a pool put it that went over the line onto another neighbor's property and the village had him take it all out. Thay also banned the contractor from working anywhere in the village after that, for not having a survey done before he started working. But different jurisdictions have different laws, you know that.

The fence will stop all the petty encroachments, like kids and dogs and mowing, that are all attempts to harass you into putting up with anything else he does.
 
Not variance but "adverse possession " !! My friend went through a long costly adverse possession case but it didn't help him though a new law was passed so that type of action couldn't be done here.Get a lawyer now, have it properly [legally]surveyed .If you do not object to another's use of your land he may be able to take it through 'adverse possession ' !!!
 
The other thing that you need to find out is what your zoning laws are and who controls them.Most places have local zoning anymore that is basically the same as,say your county laws,but a town or township can have laws different from the county or even the state.As far as squatting and things like that,I believe there is an amount of time,and I think it is usually in years as to how long a person has to use you property without your objection before he could call it his.
 
Surveyor do use GPS receivers.
Click to expand...
In addition to Gollnick's thorough discussion of GPS technology...

I have worked with surveryors who use a GPS system that's accurate to within a few centimeters. They do it by setting up their own base station, a large trailer with a giant antenna, probably 40' or higher. The field surveyors use backpack-based GPS units. I don't know what a complete setup like that costs, but a single backpack is about $14,000.

If you do not object to another's use of your land he may be able to take it through 'adverse possession ' !!!
Click to expand...
Arkansas had something similar as I recall. If a fence was constructed and two years went by without anyone complaining, the fence ~becomes~ the new property line.
 
shootist16 said:
If I build on the line its community property? Say I build 6" off the line I assume that 6" is still mine? What to do if he puts part of the pond on that 6"? Will that cause me problems down the road if I go to sell?

He did not get any permits to build this. He didn't get approval from the homeowners association either. He should've gotten a survey done. I called the county and advised that he didn't get a permit.
Click to expand...

This is all going to vary depending on local codes. Keep in mind that city clerks, while often quite knowledgable, are not lawyers. You really need a local real estate attorney.

Keep in mind that attorney's fees may be tax-deductible... consult your tax attorney about that.
 
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