Props to Ken Onion and Kershaw!

[Any Cal.]

Well, I finally took my Shallot totally apart today. I had been building a fire, and did some batonning to get kindling. What do you know, this folder loosened up just like the rest of them. I was hoping for better, but thought this would be a great opportunity to take the knife apart, clean and lube it, and see if the pivot could be tightened back up.

Well, using SPXTrader's idea of using a piece of rubber under the clip, I got the whole thing apart. I must say that I really like the design of the knife. I wondered how they got all that action in those skinny handle scales. No matter how much I like something, if it is designed poorly inside, I will get rid of it. I think the Shallot is a very nice example of proper engineering for it's intended purpose.

Soooo, good work guys. The inside is a good place to look. It is a lot like looking at the back of the sheath to see how good a job the guy did. In my super-duper-uber-armchair expert opinion, you did yourselves proud. Even if the knife is a recurve.

BTW, the knife was able to be completely cleaned up, lubed, and all the play taken out of the blade. Perfect.

 

[Thomas W]

Thanks Any Cal.

Did the Shallot cut well?

 

[spiralarchitect]

Glad you enjoyed your first tear down. I think it is a shock for most everyone when they see what makes it work. The Speedsafe mechanism is very elegant in it's simplicity. I guess it proves the ages old notion that the simplest solution to a problem is usually best.:thumbup:

 

[Any Cal.]

Thomas, the knife cut very well.

I figure most knives will do the odd job, but not all can build a fire. The Shallot made fine shavings, cut larger pieces off, and then was driven through the grain on some dry pieces to make them smaller so they would start easier.

The wood splits fairly easily, but I have ruined another quality knife doing the same thing( it developed play in the back lock), so it is not a particularly easy task. There is a right and wrong way to beat on a knife, but I was happy with the way the Shallot performed.

The reason the knife was picked for the abuse is simpy because it is my EDC, and that is what I had on me. If I did not think it would hold up to that kind of job, I would not have bought it in the first place.

Spiralarchitect, you are absolutely right. Elegant in it's simplicity.

 

[Razorsharp244]

Thomas, the knife cut very well.

I figure most knives will do the odd job, but not all can build a fire. The Shallot made fine shavings, cut larger pieces off, and then was driven through the grain on some dry pieces to make them smaller so they would start easier.

The wood splits fairly easily, but I have ruined another quality knife doing the same thing( it developed play in the back lock), so it is not a particularly easy task. There is a right and wrong way to beat on a knife, but I was happy with the way the Shallot performed.

The reason the knife was picked for the abuse is simpy because it is my EDC, and that is what I had on me. If I did not think it would hold up to that kind of job, I would not have bought it in the first place.

Spiralarchitect, you are absolutely right. Elegant in it's simplicity.

Did the edge hold up well, I mean in terms of stability? Did it roll? If so did it do so easily?

Cutting dry wood is actually quite the test for edge stability in my opinion, I guess from your post that you were happy with the performance?

Regards
//Jerker

 

[Any Cal.]

Jerker, the edge held up very well. No, it did not roll, although all cutting was with the grain. I was cutting spruce, which is pretty soft. When you split the wood with the grain, it is often the case that the edge is actually not in contact once the split is started, as it is the edge of the primary grind that is pushing the wood apart.

So far, I have used the knife for cutting carpet, wood, packages, etc. It did well cutting carpet as well. It dulled gradually, suggesting to me that it was not chipping or rolling. It also cuts cardboard well, in my opinion.

While I have not used it really hard, I have seen no evidence of rolling or chipping/microchipping. On second thought, there may have been one tiny,tiny chip, but that could have been from hitting sand/rocks in the firewood while doing the same thing on the beach.

My biggest worry about a steel is brittleness/chipping, so I look for it in my blades. So far, I have not seen any on this knife.

 

[Razorsharp244]

Jerker, the edge held up very well. No, it did not roll, although all cutting was with the grain. I was cutting spruce, which is pretty soft. When you split the wood with the grain, it is often the case that the edge is actually not in contact once the split is started, as it is the edge of the primary grind that is pushing the wood apart.

So far, I have used the knife for cutting carpet, wood, packages, etc. It did well cutting carpet as well. It dulled gradually, suggesting to me that it was not chipping or rolling. It also cuts cardboard well, in my opinion.

While I have not used it really hard, I have seen no evidence of rolling or chipping/microchipping. On second thought, there may have been one tiny,tiny chip, but that could have been from hitting sand/rocks in the firewood while doing the same thing on the beach.

My biggest worry about a steel is brittleness/chipping, so I look for it in my blades. So far, I have not seen any on this knife.

Any cal,
Spruce is as you say soft so that would not be a real test. Cutting cardboard and carpet are otherwise areas where the coarse grades normally win out over fine carbide steels in wear resistance. Good to hear it held up for you.

A few thoughts on rolling vs chipping. If pressed hard enough one of these two WILL happen. Sandviks steels will most likely roll instead of chip. This is due to the toughness brought by the fine grain type steel. Coarse carbide steels tend to chip easier than rolling. Powdermets also tend to chip before they roll, not so much due to the size of carbides but the sheer amount of them.

This is a conscious (sp?) choice made by us. We believe being on the edge-rolling side is better than being on the edge-chipping side. For a professional butcher knife edge chipping could have severe consequences (food industry and all that. Chipping is also one of the reasons we are careful not recommend too high hardness levels with our steels.

Lately I have been thinking that we sometimes are too careful. Our steels 12C27, 13C26 and 14C28N can consistently reach the sixties. High hardness would conter the rolling effect but make the blades more sensitive to chipping, however in comparisons to many other steels out there the risk for chipping with Sandvik grades would probably still be small.

What do you guys think? For a hunting, tactical, edc etc. What would be good hardness levels? Is harder always better?

I'd like to hear your personal preference as well what you think would be adviceble for "the masses" who will not put the same amount of care into their knives as the forumites would.

Regards
//Jerker

 

[spiralarchitect]

I have had S30V and ZDP-189 chip out on me and I find it to be more of a hassle than a slight roll, esp where fairly high hardness is involved. The main problems here seem to be that a knife at high hardness is more prone to chipping AND typically harder to sharpen. If you stay in the upper 50's with 13c26 you have an edge that is very useable and relatively easy to sharpen with edge holding that exceeds the avarage user's need.

We wouldn't be knife nuts if we didn't love exotic super steels with astronomical hardness numbers, but, 9 times out of 10 I reach for a recent vintage Kershaw in 13c26 to carry on any given day. I guess my conclusion is that for just about every chore I do with a knife a reasonable hardness (upper 50's) gets the job done with predictable results.

 

[svrider3]

For me it depends on the job at hand whether harder/softer is better.
I work in the carpet Industry so I know just a little about cutting carpet.
If I think I may be cutting a fair bit of carpet one day, I'll carry my ZDP-189.
But for the most part I have been EDC my RAM(13C26). I just love the fine
edge it takes and holds for less abrasive jobs. I'm no steel expert but I think
you guys have the sweet spot at around 60 HRC. Maybe 62-63 would still be
tough enough without chipping......??

Also out of topic, but have you (Sandvik) thought of adding a little Vanadium
to the above steels. How would it effect the steel. Still tough or would it make
it brittle or would it just ruin the steel. Like I said, I'm no steel expert..just curious.

Also just wanted to thank you for taking the time to spend with us here at BF's. :thumbup:

 

[SPXTrader]

Jerker, this is great info to have. Thanks again for keeping us informed! Around here, the biggest task for any knife comes during deer season. Skinning, gutting and butchering sometimes up to 12 at a time. For that purpose, the harder steels seem to work better. But for EDC purposes, I'd rather have a softer steel roll-off than chip. So you guys seem to be doing it right! :thumbup:

 

[Any Cal.]

In my mind, rolling is always better than chipping. Also, if the blade chips in use, there is a real good chance you can get fine chipping while sharpening it.

One thing to mention though, is that it seems like you can run considerably harder when there is more steel backing up the edge in the grind. I don't know this for a fact, but I expect that you could take a scandi run at 15* per side and run at nearly full hardness w/out ever seeing a problem. There is enough steel to support it laterally as well.

I specifically picked the 13c26 as a steel because I had heard that it was NOT brittle or chip prone, along with holding a nice edge. I did NOT want ATS-34 or S30V. I believe that it is only the knife people who care about the hardness, which is ironic because they are the ones who will tend to treat the knife better. The general public can care less, and will be prying staples out of boxes. Does the steel need to be run particularly hard for them?

While I have not used the knife enough to know for sure, it seems like Sandviks reccomendations are balanced. While that does not make for showy specs, it does seem to work well in many areas.

 

[2brothers]

What do you guys think? For a hunting, tactical, edc etc. What would be good hardness levels? Is harder always better?

I'd like to hear your personal preference as well what you think would be adviceble for "the masses" who will not put the same amount of care into their knives as the forumites would.

Regards
//Jerker

Harder is definitely not better IMO. I like a hardness of 57-60. As you've
stated, usually any harder than that and the blade is prone to chip.
I love my ATS-34 knives, but that was a major gripe, the chipping.

The 13C26 has never chipped on me. I have hundreds of Kershaws
that I have EDC'd with said steel and not any problems with chipping.
I've rolled a few, but usually doing something I wasn't supposed to be doing
with a knife.
Looking forward to the new 14C28N in the near future.
As Thomas explained (if I remember), the 14C28N adds more corrosion
resistance than the current 13C26 has.

While most folks don't fuss over their knives like most of us do here,
keeping the hardness level down would really benefit the "masses"
and keep them coming back. If their blade were to chip right off the bat
because it was hardened at a level of 63-65 they would think it was a
cheap knife and form an instant negative opinion.

Thanks for asking Jerker

Good thread Any Cal.

mike

 

[Razorsharp244]

Thanks for the responses guys, I will adress them more in detail when I have the chance in a few days or so. Right now I'm off on family weekend trip so I will not be online for a while.

Thanks again for your input, I will be back in a few days.,

regards
//Jerker

 

[jbombelli]

In my mind, rolling is always better than chipping.

I am in 100% agreement with that! I'd rather see a roll than a chip any day. Especially larger chips. I've had blades chip in the past, and it pains me greatly whenever that happens.

 

[Razorsharp244]

I have had S30V and ZDP-189 chip out on me and I find it to be more of a hassle than a slight roll, esp where fairly high hardness is involved. The main problems here seem to be that a knife at high hardness is more prone to chipping AND typically harder to sharpen. If you stay in the upper 50's with 13c26 you have an edge that is very useable and relatively easy to sharpen with edge holding that exceeds the avarage user's need.

We wouldn't be knife nuts if we didn't love exotic super steels with astronomical hardness numbers, but, 9 times out of 10 I reach for a recent vintage Kershaw in 13c26 to carry on any given day. I guess my conclusion is that for just about every chore I do with a knife a reasonable hardness (upper 50's) gets the job done with predictable results.

Hi Spiralarchitect,
S30V and ZDP189 have a huge carbide density, especially ZDP. This benefits wear resistance in a very good way. The trade off is low toughness. With so many hard and brittle carbides so close to each other the toughness will suffer and the blade will be more sensitive to chipping.

I think it's really a question of application (and user), for a folder EDC which is subject to abrasive wear when cutting cardboard and such I believe the toughness have limited use and the trade off to high wear resistance is worth it. But for more "hard use" knife I think that a little bit rolling isn't that bad. Especially if it prevents the tip of the blade from breaking off. The question is if we are TOO careful.

Regards
//Jerker

 

[Razorsharp244]

For me it depends on the job at hand whether harder/softer is better.
I work in the carpet Industry so I know just a little about cutting carpet.
If I think I may be cutting a fair bit of carpet one day, I'll carry my ZDP-189.
But for the most part I have been EDC my RAM(13C26). I just love the fine
edge it takes and holds for less abrasive jobs. I'm no steel expert but I think
you guys have the sweet spot at around 60 HRC. Maybe 62-63 would still be
tough enough without chipping......??

Also out of topic, but have you (Sandvik) thought of adding a little Vanadium
to the above steels. How would it effect the steel. Still tough or would it make
it brittle or would it just ruin the steel. Like I said, I'm no steel expert..just curious.

Also just wanted to thank you for taking the time to spend with us here at BF's. :thumbup:

Hi Svrider3,
I personally also think our steels have a "sweet" spot around 60, the good hardness with decent toughness will make a good blade. With a perfect heat treatment (most importantly is a fast quench) this would be great in my opinion. What we as a company have seen is that if we recommend 60 but the customers heat treat is so so, which means too much grain boundary carbides, the blade will lack toughness and break easily. So if we recommend around 58 most of our customers are happy and we dont get broken pieces sent to us. Even a poor heat treat at 58 will have sufficient toughness. But from a performance standpoint, especially edge stability, 60HRC will be better for sure.

The hardening guide (www.smt.sandvik.com/hardeningguide) I wrote with Jonas is meant to do away with these problems. NOTE: this has never been an issue with Kershaw. We supply our knife steels to many other customers and applications outside of the knife world which is quite similar in terms of production, like skate blades for instance.

Regarding vanadium, no we have no plans to use vanadium in these types of steels unfortunatly. We believe the wear resistance of chromium carbides is enough. I think the carbides themselves dont wear much, instead the steel matrix holding them together wears until the carbides "drops" out. So the actual difference in wear resistance of the carbides is a minor factor. The wear resistance in chromuim carbides are already several times higher then for pure steel at 60 HRC anyway.

Can you steel guys notice a significant difference in wear ristance between S30V (high vanadium) and ZDP (pure chrome carbon steel)?

Regards
//Jerker

 

[Razorsharp244]

Jerker, this is great info to have. Thanks again for keeping us informed! Around here, the biggest task for any knife comes during deer season. Skinning, gutting and butchering sometimes up to 12 at a time. For that purpose, the harder steels seem to work better. But for EDC purposes, I'd rather have a softer steel roll-off than chip. So you guys seem to be doing it right! :thumbup:

Hi SPXTrader,
Interesting, when it comes to hunting knives we are usually careful since we would not want a blade tip broken against a bone and end up in someones deer steak. This comes from our experience with professional butcher knives which hardens to about 57-58 just because of minimizing the risk of broken tips. Now a hunting knife is much more stout than a butcher knife (0.070-0.080" thick) to again we might be a on the safe side. Maybe 60 is a good number even here.

Regards
//Jerker

 

[Razorsharp244]

In my mind, rolling is always better than chipping. Also, if the blade chips in use, there is a real good chance you can get fine chipping while sharpening it.

One thing to mention though, is that it seems like you can run considerably harder when there is more steel backing up the edge in the grind. I don't know this for a fact, but I expect that you could take a scandi run at 15* per side and run at nearly full hardness w/out ever seeing a problem. There is enough steel to support it laterally as well.

I specifically picked the 13c26 as a steel because I had heard that it was NOT brittle or chip prone, along with holding a nice edge. I did NOT want ATS-34 or S30V. I believe that it is only the knife people who care about the hardness, which is ironic because they are the ones who will tend to treat the knife better. The general public can care less, and will be prying staples out of boxes. Does the steel need to be run particularly hard for them?

While I have not used the knife enough to know for sure, it seems like Sandviks reccomendations are balanced. While that does not make for showy specs, it does seem to work well in many areas.

Hi Any cal,
Sure, the edge angles will for sure determine the stability of the edge. I believe that this is one of the reasons why european and japanese knives have more keen knife angles than north american knives generally have. In the US you have strong tradition of coarse carbide grades like D2, 440C, ATS34, 154CM etc, which tend to chip more easily than fine carbide steels commonly used eurpoean/japanese knives. This meant that the edge angles have been developed slightly wider than for european/japanese knives. European knives are commonly fine (semi-fine) caribide structure and japanese are often carbon steels. It's my own theory that the knife design has followed the steel properties (which makes sense to me at least). You dont have to agree whith this of course, maybe I'm completely off track.

You point at one important fact here, the less a knife costs the more abuse it will take. Forumites could probably handle ceramic hunting knives, but the general public will break most knife tips with any steel at HRC60-62. And this is the real challenge for us and our customers.

Imagine selling a motorcycle with 80 horsepower when the engine can handle 120. It's a marketing nightmare because it puts you in the same category as "anyone else". This is also one of the reasons why we are looking into increasing our recommendations for hardness.

Regards
//Jerker

 

[Any Cal.]

Jerker, I am not sure how this will come across in print, but I think I know what you are saying. It makes me think of how people use things according to how they percieve them.

Think of a Sebenza. The large majority of owners use them for jobs that most people could use any tool for. Because of their price, the knives are used VERY lightly. It makes me think that a steel could be graded as an expensive, specialty steel, and then people would percieve that it's use would need to be commensurate with the way it is graded.

The steel could be the same basic composition, but it's price and description would suggest something other than general use. Then, heat treat specs could be given for that steel that would push the line a little.

As I understand, there are certain Spyderco knives designed for a thin edge and lighter cutting tasks. Those who buy those knives do so with the realization that more care will be required in use. Kind of like the SG2 Kershaws.

If a steel was graded/priced differently, wouldn't this have the same effect, even if the formula was basically the same? One steel could have a more forgiving heat treat, and another, with a different price, could carry a higher end, more rigid heat treat sequence, though both are of very similiar composition?

 

[svrider3]

Can you steel guys notice a significant difference in wear ristance between S30V (high vanadium) and ZDP (pure chrome carbon steel)?

Regards
//Jerker

In my experiences the ZDP-189 has a lot better wear resistance then
the S30V. Not that S30V is bad in any means. I have many knives in
S30V and I think it's a great steel. For me it just comes down to what
I plan on doing when I pick a certain knife with a certain steel. If I plan
on cutting a lot where wear resistance is an issue, I'll reach for the ZDP.
But for the most part in every day use, the 13C26 just does the trick for
me. It takes a fine edge, holds it pretty well and it's easy to bring back a
scary sharp edge on. I usually take my edges down to around 12 degrees
per side, and even at that angle 13C26 holds a great edge as long as I'm not
cutting something very abrasive.

Thanks for all your time spent here with us Jerker.
You've given us a lot of valuable information. :thumbup: