PSA - Winter months and shop heating

kuraki

Fimbulvetr Knifeworks
Joined
Jun 17, 2016
Messages
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This may be common sense, old hat, "yeah, duh" but I feel compelled to post about it because of how close I believe I came to being seriously injured or killed, and I'm not above using my own stupidity as an example if it helps others from making the same mistakes.

I've never spent much time in my workshop in the winter. For one, before I started making knives, most of my workshop related hobbies, I just did at work during the winter, because my out buildings are not sealed or insulated very well, and most of what I was doing required machining. So it was just easier to do at work during off hours.

Since going as close to "all in" on knifemaking as I'm going to this last spring however, that has changed, and since November I've been spending a significant amount of time in the workshop each and every night after my day job. Often from 7pm until midnight or 1 in the morning.

As the winter got colder, the small, 30,000 BTU propane torpedo heater I'd been using was no longer sufficient. Like I said, my shop is not sealed or insulated very well at all. There is a 4" gap between the bottom of my door and the footing, for example. If it's a windy day, I can often feel the breeze. I assumed I had sufficient air exchange to account for the carbon monoxide produced by a torpedo heater. I was probably right, for the 30,000 BTU unit.

But I replaced it with a 75,000 BTU heater, and I assumed wrong.

During these long, late nights, I never noticed the typical CO poisoning symptoms. I wasn't getting sleepy, or headaches, or tired or confused. And when I was done for the night, I'd come inside, shower and go straight to bed. But what I did notice is that it was becoming harder and harder to wake up in the morning. And when I finally did, I did have a headache, felt tired, foggy and confused. I chalked this up to late nights, lack of sleep, and the underlying possibility of sleep apnea/other sleep disorder.

It got to a point where my performance at work started to suffer and I nearly scheduled another sleep study to re-test for apnea (I was cleared of this a few years ago) before I had to travel for work and had a night off from working in the shop. No pounding headache or confusion that morning in the hotel. Lightbulb.

It's been two weeks since I stopped running that heater at night in the shop. We've had a bout of warmer weather, 30s, and I don't really need to run a heater at that temperature, and only now am I starting to feel normal again. The few times I've used the heater, I've left the door wide open, and I now have a CO detector in there with me.

So don't do this. I honestly believe that if I'd continued doing what I was doing, I might not have woken up one morning, because I was getting repeated exposure to levels of CO that in a single exposure, were not terribly serious, but repeated, daily exposure was becoming cumulative in it's effects.

If you heat your shop with an unvented heat source, get a CO detector.

I'm an idiot.
 
It's real


I normally didn't get headaches, but did; then also noticed red rosy cheeks.

Same thing, I left the door open 2" ajar - enough that the heater basically lost all it's heat


The CO detectors are not really meant to live and operate in the cold, so leaving them out in the frozen shop turned the electronics frozen and slow.
I suppose taking it in and out with you would work.

I've got my eyes on this one

http://www.mrheater.com/80-000-btu-big-maxx-natural-gas-unit-heater-1201.html

But that, the side vent kit, a large propane bottle and a spare, taxes will all add up to $1,200 ish
However it will allow me to seal up the leaks and close the door.

It should be a nicer experience overall.
 
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Good point on the detector, I should have mentioned, mine has battery backup, I bring it out to the shop with me and bring it back inside each day. It's a pain, but until I can build/rebuild something that I can insulate and keep 50F all winter with a vented heat source, I'll do it.
 
My CO detector was going off in my house non-stop the other day, and it was giving me a terrible headache, so I unplugged it....
:D

Seriously though, I run a kerosene torpedo heater in the shop occasionally I believe it's a 75k BTU unit as well. Normally I'll only run it until the t-stat shuts it off once or twice, and then switch it off for the remainder of my shop time. I don't get headaches or nausea either, but I did notice I was having a little trouble catching my breath the other night, after running it a little more than I usually do.
I don't really have the problems waking up that you describe, but my wife likes to sleep with the window cracked open, so maybe that extra fresh air is doing some good.

That's definitely something to keep an eye on though, and a good reminder for all of us. I worked for the local gas and electric utility for a couple years, and heard a number of stories of gas and CO leaks. Many had happy endings. Some did not. Most of the bad endings were from faulty or improperly used heaters during the winter months.

To re-iterate what the count said as well: If you think leaving a CO detector plugged into the shop is sufficient, think again. If they get too cold for too long, they pretty much become useless. If you're lucky, they'll just start beeping non-stop. If you're not lucky, they just won't work at all, and you'll think you're ok when you're not.
 
Good point on the detector, I should have mentioned, mine has battery backup, I bring it out to the shop with me and bring it back inside each day. It's a pain, but until I can build/rebuild something that I can insulate and keep 50F all winter with a vented heat source, I'll do it.

I've been thinking about getting a portable "clip-on" detector similar to this:
https://www.amazon.com/Tough-Waterp...485901922&sr=8-4&keywords=clip+on+CO+detector

that I can wear on my person. When I worked in the steel mills we had them all over the place for both CO and combustibles/O2. I'm not sure if they're as susceptible to extreme temps, but at least it's something I can remember to take in the house every time.
 
I looked into that once upon a time to have one for my wall tent/wood stove but couldn't really find one that was suitable. I'm going to look into that one though. Would be perfect if it will hold up to the cold, for many things. Like the ice shanty. Just had a couple die in their ice shack around here this winter.
 
A piece of advice I used is to take a break from time to time and try a mental exercise.

That may sound strange, but try something like reciting the alphabet backwards, do the math to see what day of the week it will be in 50 days, what did you have for breakfast 3 days ago. If you notice a LOT of difficulty wit these, like your thoughts are slow and murky, go outside immeditally, vent the area and see if the fogginess subsides.
 
I've been thinking about getting a portable "clip-on" detector similar to this:
https://www.amazon.com/Tough-Waterp...485901922&sr=8-4&keywords=clip+on+CO+detector

that I can wear on my person. When I worked in the steel mills we had them all over the place for both CO and combustibles/O2. I'm not sure if they're as susceptible to extreme temps, but at least it's something I can remember to take in the house every time.
That's a good one. The standard CO detectors are not required to go off until they hit 70ppm over 4 hours and are forbidden to alarm under 35ppm. Low level CO exposure takes a toll on your organs over time. When one of the hardware store alarms goes off it's to let you know that exposure has been great enough that you have been poisoned and immediate medical attention is needed.
 
I used to run a 110,000 kerosene torpedo with what was probably over exposure. After being sick and tired of it for years I finally
put a modine hot dog (vented) on the ceiling and have never looked back. Plumbed it into the city gas line, now I turn the thermostat
down to about 38 at night and 65 when I walk in. Could'nt be happier.
Ken.
 
I would think if you are serious about knifemaking, a proper shop is your most important piece of equipment.
Instead of using temporary heating measures, having a properly sealed and insulated shop that is heated by safe measures is something you should look into.
 
I would think if you are serious about knifemaking, a proper shop is your most important piece of equipment.
Instead of using temporary heating measures, having a properly sealed and insulated shop that is heated by safe measures is something you should look into.

It's OK I'm not really serious about it. If I get serious I'll be sure to quit until I build a proper shop.
 
Sorry if my remark offended you. It wasn't meant to.
I understand your post was to caution people about CO poisoning, and that's something very important.

But, my point is a good one.
 
I started running one of those heaters this winter, I put it in the doorway with the doors all the way open. I also open the window on the other end of the shop. It's definitely not toasty, but it's not cold. Rather be chilly than dead.
 
Non vented fuel fired space heaters are death traps at worst, and produce hangovers at best. Always use vented (chimney) heaters, that way one doesn't inhale the fumes. The best solution is a wood stove. Too many people die from those portable non vented space heaters if they don't, they are lucky to only experience CO sickness which mimics a hangover. They are fine outside as a directional heat source, but I don't recommend using them in any building, structure or confined space.
 
Torpedo type blower heaters are really not meant to used in smaller confined areas. Carbon monoxide normally stays low to the floor, but the blower on the heater in a confined space keeps it saturated in the air. There is normally no way you are able to tell if you are succumbing to carbon monoxide as the brain usually gets confused and you just succumb to the exposure.
In my construction company we would only run these heaters in very large areas where the men would come to the heater to warm up. The rest of the area remained cold and each person was reminded to watch the other relative to exposure.
I would suggest you are really playing with your health if you have a non vented, fuel fired heater in a smaller more confined space. So glad you figured it out.
 
I have a small torpedo style heater, but haven't used it that much this year. I've been using one of my propane cookers I have an old cast iron griddle I set on top of of the cooker and my anvil and other heavy chunks of metal I have around the shop stacked on top. Makes for a nice sized thermal mass once it gets up to temp and stays warm for quite a while and uses lass gas than the torpedo. My old shop I had a wood burning stove I made from a well pressure tank, once I get the metal roof on the shop, I may build another one for this shop.
 
well, people, what I have used for the last 40 years or so is 220 volt electric heating in a very well insulated room. I have used this in a part of the country that sees cold 9 months a year and like -30 for a month or so. It's not as expensive to operate as you might think.
Frank
 
Sorry if my remark offended you. It wasn't meant to.
I understand your post was to caution people about CO poisoning, and that's something very important.

But, my point is a good one.

It is a good point, and something to work towards, but not something everyone has or can afford when they first start.

The company I work for started as a drill press in a garage, and is now an employee owned $30 million/year operation.

Anyway, no offense taken. Sorry if my tongue in cheek response seemed snide.
 
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