Pull, Bail, Sharp and Spey

pertinux said:
The Grand Unified Traditional Pull Scale.

:)

~ P.
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Thanks for posting that P, I wondered what you were all on about! :D

I like a medium pull, not too stiff, maybe a 6 (though I have plenty of knives with stiffer pulls). Given the choice between stiff and weak, I'll take stiff, but would rather not have to struggle to open a blade.

The spey is my least favourite blade shape, and least used. Like Frank, I prefer a pen. I tend to use mine for castrating strawberries ;)

Bigfattyt said:
While you have a knife in your hand, and are trying to cut a little tuft of skin, they are trying to kick, and fight.
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It may be "a little tuft of skin" to you mate! :D

I like the option of a fob or lanyard. Bails are good if done well, not 'floppy' ones, and suit some knives. Other times, I'd rather have a lanyard hole, but I accept that some knives are best without either.

Occassionally I get an old knife where the blade, or more usually just the tip, has been softened by being overheated on a grindstone. Apart from that, I think the only knife I've found impossible to sharpen was some monstrosity from the Boker Magnum line, which somebody bought me. It'd probably take a file to get an edge on it, but I have no interest in a BRKT knock-off anyway.
 
Jack Black said:
Thanks for posting that P, I wondered what you were all on about! :D
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For me, almost more than clarifying what each of us means when we speak of "pull," the whole thread was worth it for Richstag's posts featuring his grandma:

richstag said:
I want to repeat that I really like the idea, but with well defined points or not, one person's scale may not be the same as another person's.

When I first got more active in the traditional section here I would put pull estimates and describe the pull. Then I would hear tons of people getting the same knives and they could barely open them. Some even described using vice grips.

After that happened enough I just stopped ever mentioning pull in any reviews. I also began asking just about anyone to try to open a knife and tell me what they think. The results were very surprising. Not so much when I asked my girlfriend to open a nailbreaker 73 or any other similar scenario. What was really surprising to me was when I would hand knives to a number of people that work with there hands regularly. The results were wide spread. Some would struggle while others found it perfect and some even found it easy.

The scale can be so far off that it could be that is spans more than 5 points from what I found. What I found rather interesting was the number of old men, over 70, (sorry to the 70 plus crowd here, I don't mean it negatively) that had no problem opening some of these stronger knives. The old man strength.

Then what is very surprising is when my 90 year old grandmother can open knives that my 28 year old girlfriend could NOT.

Just some of my perspective for you :)
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richstag said:
This thread gave me the idea to drive a minute to see my grandma. I asked her to open my 85. She did it EASILY and lauged wondering what I was up to with my camera phone in my hand. I asked her 1-10 and to smile! She said 2, and smiled for the photo!

SU1HLTIwMTIwOTE1LTAwMDIxLmpwZw.jpg


She's 90 and said its VERY easy to open.

I have heard these 85's rated as a 5 +/- online.
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:D

(My hat's off to her.)

~ P.
 
Thanks for that P (and Kris (and Kris' grandma!)!), I'm grinning ear to ear. Great post Kris :thumbup:
 
It's not "the old man strength". It's the fact that folks from that age bracket grew up USING things. And Knowing how to use them. I'm willing to bet that some of these old Traditional Knives we find today had much stouter springs when they were new. That's why they still work. Could you imagine what would have happened if your then 10 year old grandfather had handed a knife back to HIS Father and said "I can't open this. It's too strong."? One of my Granfather's favorite sayings was "Root Hog or Die!". Translated as "Take care of your own self or go without".
 
I like a medium pull. My only GEC (so far) is about a 7-7.5 I'd say, but I'd prefer around a 5. Victorinox Swiss Armys and Opinel (when not swollen!) have an ideal pull for me.

I also like spey blades. Great for lots of utility and food prep when you don't need or want to bother with a point.
 
I like a bale if it is done right. There are times when you want a lanyard. The bale is easier on the hand than that loop Victorinox uses.

The downside is a bale that it can flip all the way up without your noticing. When you close the blade, it hits the bale. That means an unnecessary trip to the grindstone.

A bale should be engineered so that it cannot fall across the closing path of any blade.
 
if a blade is such that you can pinch it with your thumb and forefinger then i dont mind a stiffer pull (think douk douk or aitor castor). but if the blade rides low in the frame so that you have to use the nail notch then i want a medium pull (like a swiss army knife or buck 301, maybe).

dont use lanyards but occasionally a bail gets in the way so that puts me in the 'apathetic, leaning toward dont like' category.

have a couple queen knives that are hard to get sharp. recently bought some dirt cheap diamond sharpeners from a discount tool place. those queen knives are easier to sharpen now. likely a combination of skill and patience on my part has been lacking. also have a couple clip blades with a real slight recurve that are hard to get evenly sharp which is almost certainly a skill and practice issue.

got this one 'imperial by schrade' trapper pattern with a spey and clip blade. i like the spey on that one because its easier to sharpen than the slightly recurved clip blade. other than that i dont care much one way or the other about spey blades.
 
My wife can't open several of my knives, but I think it has as much to do with fear of the blade getting away from her as anything else. But I've never met a blade I couldn't open. I like spey blades.
 
As much as I do like the "Grand Unified Traditional Pull Scale", I need to be more accurate & less opinionated in my analysis of pull force to open folders. There are just so many variables affecting the force needed to open a folding knife that I need to be able to measure the pull force with some degree of accuracy & repeatability.



For your reference the Sod Buster in the pic clears the liners easily at around 2 pounds of pull. :thumbup:

pertinux said:
The Grand Unified Traditional Pull Scale.

:)

~ P.
Click to expand...
 
Phil Gibbs said:
As much as I do like the "Grand Unified Traditional Pull Scale", I need to be more accurate & less opinionated in my analysis of pull force to open folders. There are just so many variables affecting the force needed to open a folding knife that I need to be able to measure the pull force with some degree of accuracy & repeatability.



For your reference the Sod Buster in the pic clears the liners easily at around 2 pounds of pull. :thumbup:
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:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I love it! At last, an accurate measure of the spring force needed to open a knife. This shpould be an industry standard!
 
Phil Gibbs said:
As much as I do like the "Grand Unified Traditional Pull Scale", I need to be more accurate & less opinionated in my analysis of pull force to open folders. There are just so many variables affecting the force needed to open a folding knife that I need to be able to measure the pull force with some degree of accuracy & repeatability.

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Accuratist.

nonono.gif~original










:p

:D

~ P.
 
Phil Gibbs said:
As much as I do like the "Grand Unified Traditional Pull Scale", I need to be more accurate & less opinionated in my analysis of pull force to open folders. There are just so many variables affecting the force needed to open a folding knife that I need to be able to measure the pull force with some degree of accuracy & repeatability.
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The phrase, "This man is a professional. Do not try this at home." is running through my mind. Although I think it could be done with one of those spring scales folks use for weighing fish .

spring-scale.jpg


I borrowed the photo. These folks don't sell knives.
 
knarfeng said:
The phrase, "This man is a professional. Do not try this at home." is running through my mind.
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:D

Now I have an excuse to buy one of the fishing spring-scales, the name of which I forget, that I had as a kid! :D
 
JAlexander said:
What kind of gauge is that, Phil?
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James, it is a Chatillon (brand) force gauge.
Although it is useful in measuring the direct nailmark pull force, I use it primarily to measure the "Initial Force" of a slip joint spring in an assembled knife. This is more useful in that it negates the tightness of the blade & other factors that may influence nailmark pull readings (not to say that nailmark pull is not the most important measurement to the customer!)





The "Initial Force" is the force exerted on the blade tang in the open (& theoretically closed) position.
By pushing down on the handle increasing push until the point where there is just a little blade play, it is possible to get a fairly accurate picture of the spring's proximity to it's intended design specs. By measuring numerous knives it becomes apparent how all the production variations (hole locations, spring inside polish & exterior hafting, heat treat & warpage as well as blade tang variations) will effect the entire production run.

The same knife that had a nailmark pull force of around 2 pounds has an initial force of 21 pounds.

Even a well designed spring will be a disaster if produced with excessive manufacturing variations.
Such variations can produce some of those things we all hate:
Nail buster to open, spongy or no snap closed & my nightmare, the broken spring!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
knarfeng said:
The phrase, "This man is a professional. Do not try this at home." is running through my mind. Although I think it could be done with one of those spring scales folks use for weighing fish .

spring-scale.jpg


I borrowed the photo. These folks don't sell knives.
Click to expand...

Jack Black said:
:D

Now I have an excuse to buy one of the fishing spring-scales, the name of which I forget, that I had as a kid! :D
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Yes, I have used similar type gauges to set up on the spot testing in the past.
The Chatillon gauge was $500 25 years ago!

Just be sure to fabricate your clamp to engage the nailmark as close a possible to a fingernail.

 
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