Pushing or pulling your knife on a stone?

psy-ops

psy-ops

Joined
Sep 27, 1999
Messages
3,164
Is there any difference?

I find I do both on separate occassions. Anyone have any preferences?
 
i normally push but i do pull sometimes... i think it evens it all out some how...im sure it just ruins all my previous work lol...
 
I push on diamonds and Arkansas...I pull on waterstones.
When I push on a waterstone I get a polished dull edge, esp the 10000 grit superstone.
 
I guess you mean edge leading or trailing. I lead, but used to trail. I push and pull though, I sharpen holding the handle with my right hand and don't switch.
 
It makes not one iota of difference. Getting a knife sharp involves intersecting 2 planes at a given angle, at the finest possible finish.
Bill
 
leading was found to reduce the size of the bur somewhat while sharpening, so it should be a little bit faster, but I agree that getting the knife sharp is mostly concerned with just holding a proper angle.
 
For restoring a really dull edge I work back and forth until I get to a nearly sharp edge. Then I switch to pushing (edge leading) to minimize burr formation. If I finish with a strop I pull using light pressure. On a waterstone I would finish with pull strokes. The hone is so soft and that it seems necessary.
 
I'm with Jeff, but really think whichever stroke is most repeatable and comfortable for you will provide the best results.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
It makes not one iota of difference.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. Leading on a stone compacts the steel and gives a more even burr than by trailing which stretches the steel. Remove the burr is better by trailing on leather, you don't " push back" the burr to the fresh thin edge. Not sure my english gives justice to what i want to say, thanks for your patience.

dantzk.
 
I agree with Jeff Clark and Bridges, exactly my experience.

In my opinion, it depends solely on the hardness of the hone. On hard hones I do not seem to get enough bite with edge trailing. It works with edge trailing but I prefer edge leading and yes it seems on those hones that leading reduces burr formation. On soft hones (anything into which a blade might bite or which creates a form of slurry) tailing works, edge leading does not - that simple (just my humble opinion of course). I assume this is due to what Juranich calls "plowing". Also, on these soft hones, waterstones in particular, burr seems to be much less of an issue, my suspicion is that the slurry in the wake of the blade gently breaks up the burr and prevents it from growing too large.
 
Small circles do wonders for my S30V Native on DMT fine and x-fine stones. I've had good results with both edge trailing and leading at various times with various stones and knives. Small circles is always quickest, but forms a burr readily which needs to be worked off. Doesn't really matter which method you use as long as your technique is good.
 
A burr is not a required part of sharpening.
If your bevels are properly polished there is no burr.
So it makes no difference in reality. Holding a consistent angle and proper edge polish are all that matters.
Bill
 
Bill DeShivs said:
A burr is not a required part of sharpening.
If your bevels are properly polished there is no burr.
So it makes no difference in reality. Holding a consistent angle and proper edge polish are all that matters.
Bill
Click to expand...

I guess I don't get it. Sharpening involves removing metal. Removing metal causes a burr to be formed. Right? So how do you do it?
Buzz :confused:
 
On a knife edge a burr is a residue of unremoved material. If the steel has any ductility (if it isn't as brittle as glass) and if you are honing at a low angle you will get a burr if you hone even slightly more than the minimum to reach an edge. With a hard alloy that is full of carbides, like D2, this burr may crumble off, but it does so by having the edge break down.

There are lots of ways to remove the burr, but you want to do it neatly and leave a clean acute edge. If you strop with something that has a lot of friction you will rip off the burr. This works pretty well, but will slightly damage the edge left behind. If your strop also has some fine abrasive it can repair the damage it does ripping off the burr and so this can work fairly well in practice. Just don't press too hard and round off the edge. If the stop is smooth and only slightly abrasive it may not pull off the burr and then it can have trouble removing the burr. The burr will flop away from the strop with each stroke and it can take extra time before it is removed. A severe case like this would be stropping (pulling) on a very smooth hone like a hard arkansas stone. It has trouble removing the burr in this case, particularly if you used oil on the stone.

When you hone edge-leading (pushing) the hone has a slightly greater tendency to grab material at the edge and drag it into the contact area between the edge and the hone. When it gets there it will get cut away rather than folding back at the edge--thus reducing burr formation. Nonetheless you will get some burr formation with most alloys if you hone at a low angle even if you use edge-leading strokes. My edge-leading method for removing that burr is to elevate the honing angle by around an extra 10 degrees and very lightly stroking the edge on alternate sides for 4 strokes or so. This will exceed the burrs ability to flex and you will cut it neatly at the edge. This will slightly increase your edge angle in a very narrow line right at the edge. I then do a little more honing at the normal (low) honing angle to restore the original edge angle. I don't do it much or it will start another burr.
 
Jeff is correct. A burr is a byproduct of abrading the edge. If you get your bevels to meet, burr or not, and go to a finer stone, you will get a smaller burr. Go to a polishing stone like extra fine sintered ruby, the burr disappears as the edge is polished. Stropping should remove any residual burr.
As you go to finer grits, increasing the sharpening angle will also cut the burr off.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
Jeff is correct. A burr is a byproduct of abrading the edge. If you get your bevels to meet, burr or not, and go to a finer stone, you will get a smaller burr. Go to a polishing stone like extra fine sintered ruby, the burr disappears as the edge is polished. Stropping should remove any residual burr.
As you go to finer grits, increasing the sharpening angle will also cut the burr off.
Click to expand...

Smaller burr. I guess that's it. I use an EdgePro and after the 800 stone I strop on leather with CrO .5 micron. It seems to work okay for me and with decent steels push cutting is a nobrainer.

Buzz
 
Bill DeShivs said:
Jeff is correct. A burr is a byproduct of abrading the edge. If you get your bevels to meet, burr or not, and go to a finer stone, you will get a smaller burr. Go to a polishing stone like extra fine sintered ruby, the burr disappears as the edge is polished. Stropping should remove any residual burr.
As you go to finer grits, increasing the sharpening angle will also cut the burr off.
Click to expand...

This goes against my experience, and is not necessarily compatible with the intended purpose. In my experience not all burrs will disappear simply by going to finer grits. Yes the burr gets usually smaller, but that doesn't mean it disappears completely. Also on some occasions one might what to finish at a certain grit, precluding going to finer and finer grits. Finally, it is quite possible to pull up a very small but noticable burr on very fine grits as well.

A very fine, lasting edge is ALL about the burr to me. The moment the two planes truely intersect, a burr WILL appear due to the ductility of the steel. The "art" of sharpening if you will is to make those two planes intersect while creating the smallest possible burr. This is pretty darn difficult without raising the angle somewhere in the process (stropping is essentially nothing but a raising of the angle).
 
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