Quality Question

barrabas74

barrabas74

Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
8,165
My father, a recently turned collector of custom knives ordered a knife from a MS in December. Kept in touch with the maker on the details and what not and recieved his piece yesterday. At first glance the knife is very nice and everything looks good. However on my further inspection(and his as well) it was found to have many flaws. Some verticle marks on the blade, hot spots on the handle were it appears the maker may have rushed the handle. The handle is inlaid sterling silver and that has a spot or two that has a yellow tint.

I will get a picture up of this later. I dont want to post the makers name right away as I want to get a response first. This is my fathers first knife from an MS and he was genuinley excited and anxious..and I was for him. However these flaws at least to me are unnaceptable and I believe they are to him as well. He only payed around 300 but when someone has that MS under there name...I expect more.

I want to know what you all think should be done, this insnt W&C to me as I dont think I am whining. I know the price reflects what we should look at in a knife however I think that a knife thats made by someone whose become an MS should def be held to a diff standard. I have recieved knives from JS's which to me were not flawless but had almost no distinguishable marks like this one has.
 
Russ Andrews said:
Have you discussed this with the maker..?
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He got it yesterday and I am having him discuss it with the maker today. I sound like I am the father in this situation as he is not used to the process. I guess my question boils down to....Should we have expected more? or for the price range is what we got ok? Now I cant get the pic up until after 4 as that is when I get off of work. And because we have not spoken to him yet is why I leave him incognito
 
barrabas74 said:
My father, a recently turned collector of custom knives ordered a knife from a MS in December. Kept in touch with the maker on the details and what not and recieved his piece yesterday. At first glance the knife is very nice and everything looks good. However on my further inspection(and his as well) it was found to have many flaws. Some verticle marks on the blade, hot spots on the handle were it appears the maker may have rushed the handle. The handle is inlaid sterling silver and that has a spot or two that has a yellow tint.

I will get a picture up of this later. I dont want to post the makers name right away as I want to get a response first. This is my fathers first knife from an MS and he was genuinley excited and anxious..and I was for him. However these flaws at least to me are unnaceptable and I believe they are to him as well. He only payed around 300 but when someone has that MS under there name...I expect more.

I want to know what you all think should be done, this insnt W&C to me as I dont think I am whining. I know the price reflects what we should look at in a knife however I think that a knife thats made by someone whose become an MS should def be held to a diff standard. I have recieved knives from JS's which to me were not flawless but had almost no distinguishable marks like this one has.
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IMO, you and your dad have reason to be displeased as a MS knife should meet MS standards whether $350 or $3500.

I'm sure the maker in question will be eager to do what ever is necessarily to satisfy you, but that's not the point IMO.

A new collector's first MS knife is a big step, and it appears the maker may have missed an opportunity to represent himself and the forged industry in a positive light.

As long as the maker works to make it right with you, I would not name him here, however would send him this forum link so as he may understand what collectors expect.

I don't believe we as a group need to see the knife as it's not about IMO what standards of a MS knife should be, but that you and your dad are pleased and have a positive experience. I would e-mail a photo to several collectors and/or makers if you need guidance.

This thread has the potential to become a very positive or very nasty thread, depending on how handled.

The silver wire inlay kind of narrows the field as to who the maker in question is.
 
Hi Barrabas, was just wondering if you had any success in resolving your issues regarding your Dad's knife with maker?
 
A $300 dollar knife is generally finished like a $300 knife regardless of maker.

Kevin,
I have seen some older MS knives that would shock you with their mediocrity.
Only since the advent of the internet have some forged makers been so concerned with fit and finish.

Those little initials mean different things to different makers.
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
A $300 dollar knife is generally finished like a $300 knife regardless of maker.

Kevin,
I have seen some older MS knives that would shock you with their mediocrity.
Only since the advent of the internet have some forged makers been so concerned with fit and finish.

Those little initials mean different things to different makers.
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IMO, any maker MS or not should instill the same quality regardless of their particular knife's price. If he can't offer his standard of quality @ $300, he should not offer knives in that price range. I guess that's why many MS don't offer knives at the $300 range.

Though rare, I have seen new MS knives that shocked me with their mediocrity and substandard fit and finish.
 
A sterling silver handled knife with inlay for $300.00, from an MS? I would love to see this knife. I would also like to know what the maker said about this situation.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
A sterling silver handled knife with inlay for $300.00, from an MS? I would love to see this knife. I would also like to know what the maker said about this situation.
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Not a sterling silver handle, but wood handle with fine silver wire inlay. At least that's how I understand it.
But even silver wire inlay is pushing it on a $300 MS knife. Perhaps the maker should have forgone the labor and expense for the inlay for more time on the fit and finish. :confused:
 
Have you seen other examples of the makers work around the same price that do not have the faults you mentioned. If you have then definitely consult with the maker. If you have not, then sadly this may be the standard the maker works at, MS stamp or not. I hope this is not the case and your dad gets his knife fixed the way he wants it

peter
 
My father called the gentleman the other night but got the answering machine. Been alot going on so he has not had time to call again. It was wood handles with Silver wire inlay. I hesitate to put pics up until my father has this resolved, I almost feel he is going to drop it because it is around a 300 dollar knife.

Del Raso: He ordered this knife at a show so I did not get to see the makers other works, however I did see some on his site and it did not appear to be this way. Pics on the net dont tend to show flaws that well pending how there taken of course.
 
I think the notion of using the MS nomenclature next to ones work is much like the Medical professional displaying a "Surgeon", "Anesthesiologist" or a Financial professional displaying a "CPA" after their names. It is meant to convey to the reader (or buyer) that this person has a special knowledge and understanding of a particular process in excess of what is "normally" seen. These suffixes, warranted or not, do one thing and that is to raise the expectation of what the buyer will receive.

If the intent of the knife building profession is to use this suffix as a descriptor to the general public of the work produced by an individual then this particular event has even greater significance to the profession as a whole! Just some thoughts.

Mac
 
A few years ago I bought my first MS knife from a popular purveyor. I paid in the neighborhood of 425 for it. It was a hunter made by an individual you would all know.

The English walnut handle is a mortised tang. I was somewhat dismayed that not only didn't the two handle pieces match but there was a fairly pronounced gap that was filled with epoxy.

I really didn't know whether that was the norm or not. After spending some time on these forums and having a few other ABS mortised tang hunters pass through my hands, I realized I should have expected better.

I still have that knife but will never buy another piece by that particular MS.

You reap what you sow.

If I were you and your dad I would definitely, at a minimum, voice my concerns and displeasure to the maker.

Gary
 
I agree with you Mac in that the MS "implies," however does not guarantee the knife will meet certain quality standards.

What makes this situation unique and interesting is the $300 price as it's rare for a MS maker to offer a knife in that price range even without the silver wire inlay.
As a matter of fact, silver wire inlay alone can ADD up-wards of $300 and beyond to the price of a typical MS maker's knife that offers such.

I started a thread a while back addressing makers and custom orders and one thing I took away from that discussion was the importance of communication between maker and collector. Sounds like there was a communication break down here as the maker agreed to deliver a lot of knife for $300, and IMO you correctly assumed you were to receive MS quality, fit and finish.

Your comment, "at first glance the knife is very nice and everything looks good" kind of leads me to believe that you probably got more than your monies worth. However, I venture that offers little comfort as your dad is not satisfied and that's what its all about especially since it's his first "MS" custom knife.

What concerns me most about this situation is that it may happen more often than we realize, and could very possibly make a new collector lose interest and give up on custom knife collecting. There's a BIG expectation when a new collector makes a substantial decision to acquire their first "MS" knife.
 
Thanks for the input guys, unfortunatley this is not my knife so I cannot force my father to look into this and I can only offer suggestions. I have relaid most of your alls comments and he was unaware of even the price range things like wire inlay would lay in. So he may be a little more at ease now, I think.

To me at first glance everything does look fine, then you look at the blade and there are many little things, grinds going the wrong way, and some scuffing etc. Things that just make you wonder if he was just trying to get it out and get it over with. I personally am not satisfied, having bought several knives off of non ABS makers and some ABS here and elsewhere with great F&F for similar money(minus the inlay).

I than you all for all your help, its sunday so I doubt my father will call this gentleman. Hoping for Monday at the least to have him discuss this just to see where it goes.
 
The maker should definitely know about your dad's concerns. As a maker, I would want to know and would do everything I could to make it right.
 
:thumbup: Just wanted to give a thumbs up to the way you have been handling this situation. Keeping the maker anonymous and not posting pictures avoids trashing someones reputation. I hope everything is resolved to your satisfaction.
 
I guess, for me, it would come down to what you ordered. If you asked the maker for the cheapest knife he could make, It sounds like you might have done OK for your money. If you asked for a knife that would look just like one Bill Moran would have made, you probably got it. Makers methods differ, abs standards have changed over the years, and talent is not evenly distributed. Any of these could explain the knife you have now. It does seem like you probably got $300 worth of MS knife, but without seeing it it is hard to tell for sure. I don't think that earning an MS stamp should require that a maker has to turn out museum quality pieces every time he goes out to the shop. I do think a maker owes it to the customer to explain to him what he will get for his money.
 
gotta agree that you should at least give the guy a call......no matter what.

A bunch of years ago, probably twenty, this guy I was teaching how to make knives ordered one from a very well known Guild member.

The knife was CRAP........the guy I was teaching could have made one as good. My friend is very meek and did nothing, so I wrote the fool a letter..and I got one back: "If you ever try to join the knifemakers guild I will make sure you get vetoed"

Nice way to run a business......I saved the letter for a long time, but finally threw it away!:rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes:
 
I'm very surprised that this MS would make a knife with silver wire inlay for $300.00. This is my opinion, so take it for what it is worth, but if I was that MS, I would have convinced the buyer to go with a bare bones, well made knife, and to skip the embellishments.
 
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