queen knives - pivot washers ?

J

jacktrades_nbk

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Feb 7, 2007
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Of all the traditionals i've tried, only these two queen knives, a canoe and a serpentine jack, appear to have some sort of steel washers. Anybody knows if these are washers or is it the bolster design that has some steel in it around the pivot ?

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I have a Canoe with the Birdseye Maple covers and it has the bushings? but they are not as big as yours. It looks like your blade is half open, I have to go 3/4 to see mine. The tang still hides them at 1/2 open.
I also have a mini Trapper with them. Still look smaller than yours though.

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After seeing this post I looked at my Queen City Copperhead, it has that feature also. Can't tell for sure if it is a bushing or not.
 
Yes, thanks for pointing this out. I dug out my serpentine jack and saw the same bushing. I'm very curious as to what it's made from. Nickel? Steel? At any rate, digging this knife out will encourage me to put a useable edge on it.
 
Modoc ED said:
Take a look at post #2 in this thread.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...and-tHreaded-bolsters?highlight=blade+washers
Click to expand...

Very interesting link, Ed. :thumbup:

I wonder if maybe Queen has 'relieved' (milled) the back side of the bolsters to create that bearing surface, which appears to stand just a bit proud of the inside of the brass liner. That would appear to have the same effect as the liner milling in your link, to minimize contact between the blade tang and the inside of the liner. I've always been impressed with the glassy smoothness of opening/closing on my Cattle King, and that 'raised' bearing surface could have something (everything) to do with that.

I'm sure it's also possible that what we're seeing is just an actual washer placed into a cutout in the brass liner, itself a bit thicker than the liner, which could accomplish the same thing (might be less expensive to make, too). The 'washer' looks like it could be steel to me (and the bolsters are nickel). From a wear standpoint, a steel bearing surface against the steel blade tang might make more sense. I'd think the steel tang could wear down the bearing surface quickly, if it were a raised (milled) extension of the nickel bolster. Something new to think about; hopefully we'll get some more input here.
 
I think what you are seeing is the "tommy" pin. It is a rivet pin forged or cast as part of the bolster, which goes through the liner or scale and is peened inside.
The pivot pin may or may not go through it, creating an illusion of a bushing. If you move the blade as you look at it, you may notice it is not at the center of movement like the pivot is.
 
Here's a quoted post from member 'Codger_64' about so-called 'Swinden Key' construction of folder pivots, including an image of the parts breakdown of a Schrade folder. Note the 'slots' in the liners, into which the 'tommy pins' (by his description) are inserted.

( Quoted post found in this thread -->: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ideas-on-this-old-schrade?highlight=tommy+pin )
Codger_64 said:
That sounds like the Swinden Key construction. I did not see bolster pins in the photo, but they are more apparent in hand if they are there. SOmewhere I have a copy of the patent and a broken down 897UH photo, but I have once again crashed a computer and lost a lot of files. Larry V (LRV) probably has copies he can post. He doesn't crash computers. He rebuilds them bionic, better and stronger, like Lee Majors.

Here. I think this shows the keyhole slots in the liners that the bolster tommy pins fit into.
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Click to expand...

My only reservation about this is, it appears the wider end of the slots would be left 'open', after the 'tommy pin' is inserted and then slid (locked) into place. If I understand the Swinden Key construction correctly, I'm also thinking the wide head of the 'tommy pin' would be seen on the outside of the liner (under the bolster), as opposed to what we seem to see in these Queen pivots (seen on the inside of the liner, flush to the blade tang). Does this make sense, or is there something else I'm not seeing?

Here's one of member '300Bucks' pics of the Swinden Key construction (cut-away), for comparison:
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The tommy on a Swinden key system is completely different from a "standard" tommy pin. A standard tommy is not designed as a keyhole arrangement, but a permanent fastener, filling it's hole tightly.
 
waynorth said:
I think what you are seeing is the "tommy" pin. It is a rivet pin forged or cast as part of the bolster, which goes through the liner or scale and is peened inside.
The pivot pin may or may not go through it, creating an illusion of a bushing. If you move the blade as you look at it, you may notice it is not at the center of movement like the pivot is.
Click to expand...

I feel like the ones on mine are definitely not centered on the pivot pin.
So you're saying the "tommy" pin would be solid and is used to secure the liner to the bolster (or vice versa) by peening it into place before the pivot hole is drilled?
 
Once again, I might've done well just to start out searching through member zerogee's old posts. I found this post in another old thread, which seems to detail the concept of 'tommy pins' as thoroughly as I could possibly hope for (I'd expect no less from zerogee :thumbup:):

( found in this thread -->: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/800223-Innards-Pics-requested )
zerogee said:
Tommy pins are how bolsters have been attached to liners for a long time - going back to the early 1800s at least. The tommy pin is an integral part of the bolster - as the bolster's general shape is being rough formed by a die, a short round "pin" is formed protruding from the back of the bolster. This is matched up to a corresponding hole in the liner and the two are then riveted together - no welding, no soldering - proving that many problems can be solved with a big enough hammer. Precisely how they place the hole for the tommy pin and how they place the pivot hole depends on the manufacturer. For many, the tommy pin hole and the pivot pin are always separate; for many Sheffield firms and a few old American ones, they made a tommy pin hole, riveted the bolster on, and then drilled the pivot pin hole thru both liner and bolster, never mind where it goes thru the tommy pin and liners - so long as the tommy pin diameter is somewhat larger than the pivot pin, this works fine; Case took this another step and made the tommy pin quite large, so that when they drill the pivot pin hole thru they go more or less thru the center of the tommy pin.

Here we see my sophisticated drafting skillz - showing a cross section of the bolster, tommy pin, pivot pin, liners, scale. Now with new improved diagram - 17% less confusing that before. Examples for Miller Bros and Case - images below.

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This is a Miller Bros congress - a clapped out example of another I have - showing separate tommy pins and pivot pin holes -- along with some unusual construction. They used a generalized liner with preformed holes (at least positioning holes) - same for both liners - with unused holes for tommy pins for longer bolsters, a second set of unused holes for scale pins (for use with the longer bolsters), and unused shield pin holes. By placing one set of tommy pin holes close to the ends of the liner, they can also attach some styles of tip bolsters. Iron bolsters.

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And this is a Case XX 64052 with the huge tommy pins. Nickel silver liners and bolsters. The older Case Tested XX knives used the same construction.

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-- Dwight
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Wonderful expose' by zerogee! The drawings tell the tale!!!
 
Wonderful expose' by zerogee! The drawings tell the tale!!!:thumbup:
 
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