quench oil question

J.Marsillo

J.Marsillo

Joined
Nov 8, 2000
Messages
1,255
I am taking the plunge and buying some quench oil.can anyone offer some advice? Currently I am heat treating in the forge using a temp probe and peanut oil.I am so far only using 1095 and 1075/80 (I'll leave the mystery steel out of this one :) ) I have some W-2 that I will be using in the future as well.
What would be the best oil for these types of steel.Should I build a quenchtank for my new known quenchant.would a jacuzzi pump work for the tank and how many gallons should I get?
....jeeze reading that back i got deja-vu :o
 
The Heatbath Park 50 that Darren Ellis just started selling would be primo for all three of those steels, Joe.

If yer doing one knife per session I think a couple gallons would do unless you're building some long or exceptionally thick bulky knives.

I'm not sure about the whirlpool pump. Ya want turbulence, not seismic activity. :D Maybe someone has some experience.
 
One of the nice features of oil, made for quenching steel, is that it gives up the heat as fast as it takes it. Five gallons of Tough Quench rises about 32 to 35 degrees when quenching a bowie size blade.[180 to 215 fh] I cool my oil after doing a quench by putting a large cold steel bar in it. Ten minutes and the oil is back to temperature.
I use a bucket heater to bring the oil to temp. They are cheap and effective.
A small digital thermometer, with a remote sensor, will give you a quick read out.
The product Darren is selling, is a good quenching oil.

Good Luck, Fred
 
Parks #50 for fast quench steels. It will do the slower ones,OK ,too. If you set up two tanks (eventually) get parks AAA for the other.

I met a guy at a show who had a neat way of cooling his tank down. He put a two foot piece of 1.5" round stock in a bucket of ice and water. After he quenched a blade, and removed it. He would take out the cold bar, wipe it off with a rag (to dry it) and stick it in the quench tank. A few stirs and the temp would drop right back, ready for the next quench.

I built a set of quench tanks last year . One is five gallons and is heated. The larger is ten gallons ,and is heated and cooled.Both are built from water heaters. The circulation pump need not be large. The cooling is by running the oil through a transmission cooling radiator with a fan. It is thermostatically controlled to turn on if the tank temperature rises 10F.
Stacy
 
Thanks Guys :) I know there is a search feature but sometimes my head spins from all the info.
Stacy I have that quench tank idea of yours logged in my head for future reference.Once I get a nice sized shop I can set that up, I have enough trouble running everything off an extension cord. ;) The wife cant vacuum when the grinder's running :D
 
Just built the tank yesterday... not sure if I'm going to make it long enough to pick it up at Harley's, Darren... I'm getting scratchy already!
 
I feel I must take this opportunity to offer a bit of advice on this oil that needs to be shared. Darren has given the blade making community a great opportunity to use one of the fastest and efficient oils out there for quenching, but I can see a moronically false “I told you so” coming from it. This oil is not old crankcase sludge, it is not used deep fryer fodder, it is a finely tuned product designed for one purpose- hardening steel most efficiently; it must be used properly. I have a Chinese three in one machine and I don’t really pamper it all that much, what’s the point? It was only good for so many thousandths right out of the box, but if I had a top of the line Bridgeport with all the tooling, you can bet that puppy would be kept clean and well maintained.

Back to the oil, #50 has a very low flash point compared to many other “oils” you may have used, yet I have never flashed it by using it properly, the stuff has a small enough jacket and fast enough thermal extraction that it is not a problem….. unless you don’t use it right. Flashing this oil and allowing it to burn on the surface will soot it up and oxidize it to the point that it will quickly be no better than any other sludge you pulled out of the bottom of a truck or fryer. You really wnat to get all the hot steel entirely beneath the surface of the oil to avoid flame. Years ago I gave some #50 to my students in the "Intro to Bladesmithing" course by the end of the day I wanted to weep for what they had done to that oil, in that short time with it while I was unable to look over every shoulder, edge quenching and over heating had made that wonderful stuff indistinguishable from any other pan of loose tar in the place. The old trick of heating up a big bar and plunging it into the oil to flame it up and heat it to 150F real quick can also lead to a short life of this oil. This is not a cheap, imported dollar store tool, it is a finely made high performance product, treat it as such and you will never wish to use substitute oils again. But if one is out to prove that #50 is no better than their black Crisco by similarly abusing it, they will be able to convince themselves of just that. 5 gallons of this stuff can be an investment, I just thought I would share some of my experience to help protect that investment.
 
What is an appropriate temp range for pre-heat, Kevin? Added: I mean with respect to your experience. Heathbath recommends 50-120*F.
 
Would heating the oil by propane burner under the quench tank be a satisfactory method?

I made a vertical quench tank this weekend out of 8" diameter pipe (1/4" wall) that's 25" tall with a 1/4" plate bottom. I also welded some 12" long angle iron legs to raise it off the ground (so I could heat it with a propane burner). Would this be sufficient?
 
Fitzo I run in the recommended range although I have gone to 130F occasionally (150F by mistake and still ahd success).

Matt, any gentle heat source from the outside of the tank will work fine, the idea is not to oxidize the oil, that is bad for almost any oil in almost any application. Flashing the oil is the bad thing, keep it clean and in in its proper working range. Some may ask how they avoid over heating the oil when they have a large batch of blades, this is how you determine how much oil you need. If you are overheating your oil due to the volume you are quenching then you are using too little oil for the job. It is always better to have too much than too little. The guy doing 1 or 2 little hunters at at time will only need a small container, those doing higher volumes of blades will need more oil, but then that is common sense. I believe it wise to always buy at least 5 gallons.
 
Thanks for the advice Kevin.Should I set aside a gallon for edge quenching? I'm a sucker for a hamon is claycoating bad for the oil too? I dont do large batches of knives,maybe 3 or 4 at most or 1 big knife.Quench tank is in the making too,I had to evict my tractor form the garage....the snowblower's next;)
I just invested in a good thermocouple so overheating shouldnt be an issue.(actually I am surprised at the temp now that I can see it)I am trying to pull the stops out and go for broke,actually go for green.I couldnt bring myself to sell a knife that wasnt made right and I dont have the time to test test test untill I find that magic "color" or good oil.


I remember you telling that story of the ruined oil before in another thread,thank god :) I would have been pissed if I learned that one the hard way.Dont worry I'll be gentle :)
 
J.Marsillo said:
Thanks for the advice Kevin.Should I set aside a gallon for edge quenching? I'm a sucker for a hamon is claycoating bad for the oil too? I dont do large batches of knives,maybe 3 or 4 at most or 1 big knife.Quench tank is in the making too,I had to evict my tractor form the garage....the snowblower's next;)
I just invested in a good thermocouple so overheating shouldnt be an issue.(actually I am surprised at the temp now that I can see it)I am trying to pull the stops out and go for broke,actually go for green.I couldnt bring myself to sell a knife that wasnt made right and I dont have the time to test test test untill I find that magic "color" or good oil.


I remember you telling that story of the ruined oil before in another thread,thank god :) I would have been pissed if I learned that one the hard way.Dont worry I'll be gentle :)
Click to expand...

Seeing this thread and the response Darren has gotten for the oil, keeps this forum my favorite on the internet. This weekend at the Badger show it was mentioned many times how this forum has some wide open minds that will be some of the best knifemakers very quickly. On this forum one can hold up the light of facts and truth and have very few folks complain about the glare.

Joe, your question is a good one since it reminds me of something that I didn’t touch on- debris and sediment. Contamination in quenchants is something that industry stays ahead of as much as possible. I have noticed that when I have used an oil enough that there is a good layer of salt scales in the bottom things seem a little better if I refresh it, definitely removing the oil and cleaning it all out, or even adding new stuff. Clay should be heavy enough that it settles at the bottom, anything that would mix with the oil and stay in solution WILL be a problem. One good way to judge is by the clarity of the oil, it is a real treat to quench into the stuff because it is crystal clear and you can watch the entire cooling process under the surface (with water the vapor jacket prevents this). IF you cannot easily see through #50 or AAA there is a suspension and you will have decreased performance. Water is also something that you definitely want to keep out of the oil, moisture made a real mess of a batch of AAA I had.

The clay will build up on the bottom and is best removed as soon as you can, but I believe that claying the back is a far better way to get differential hardness than edge quenching, both for the oil and for the blade.

I think the points that are being discussed here are important enough that it would be good if a moderator could split the part about contamination and oxidation off into a separate thread so that it can get the full attention of those buying this oil. I would hate to see folks buy something only to quickly ruin it by not knowing the maintenance concerns. It would also be good for Darren so that people can rave for years about his new line of products instead of grumble that they were no better than sludge after they themselves reduced it to sludge.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Seeing this thread and the response Darren has gotten for the oil, keeps this forum my favorite on the internet. This weekend at the Badger show it was mentioned many times how this forum has some wide open minds that will be some of the best knifemakers very quickly. On this forum one can hold up the light of facts and truth and have very few folks complain about the glare.

Joe, your question is a good one since it reminds me of something that I didn’t touch on- debris and sediment. Contamination in quenchants is something that industry stays ahead of as much as possible. I have noticed that when I have used an oil enough that there is a good layer of salt scales in the bottom things seem a little better if I refresh it, definitely removing the oil and cleaning it all out, or even adding new stuff. Clay should be heavy enough that it settles at the bottom, anything that would mix with the oil and stay in solution WILL be a problem. One good way to judge is by the clarity of the oil, it is a real treat to quench into the stuff because it is crystal clear and you can watch the entire cooling process under the surface (with water the vapor jacket prevents this). IF you cannot easily see through #50 or AAA there is a suspension and you will have decreased performance. Water is also something that you definitely want to keep out of the oil, moisture made a real mess of a batch of AAA I had.

The clay will build up on the bottom and is best removed as soon as you can, but I believe that claying the back is a far better way to get differential hardness than edge quenching, both for the oil and for the blade.

I think the points that are being discussed here are important enough that it would be good if a moderator could split the part about contamination and oxidation off into a separate thread so that it can get the full attention of those buying this oil. I would hate to see folks buy something only to quickly ruin it by not knowing the maintenance concerns. It would also be good for Darren so that people can rave for years about his new line of products instead of grumble that they were no better than sludge after they themselves reduced it to sludge.
Click to expand...

Thank you Mr.Cashen :) Just what the Dr. ordered, good info with a side of "clarity" :)
 
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