quenching 01 in H2O

Originally posted by R.W.Clark
Wish it were that easy. That will only give you a straight or at best a slightly uneven hamon. It take more prep to get a very wavy hamon.

And I ain't a tellen :D;).

<a href=http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/R.W.Clark/Pana0011.jpg><img src="http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/R.W.Clark/Pana0011.jpg" wid
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Well no duh, I could have wrote a detailed short essay on the subject. He just needed the basics. Isnt common sense that the line will be in the shape that you place. And yes its that easy. My first hamon was an old file with w1/sandvik who knows what material it was. And if you dont share your knowledge with others than why are you reading about how to treat O1.
 
I wouldn`t mind jumping in here also. I use O-1 for 99% of my blades and oil quench in veggy oil at 135F no more and no less, grain structure of a broken blade is non existent to the naked eye. I mean it is silky smooth. I`ve even had a master smith tell me I`m doin something right.
and on the hamon thing...yes you can get a real nice hamon on O-1 with both clay or differential heat treat.
richard5.jpg


daggerdone.jpg


Oh and have never had an O-1 blade crack from heat treat!
 
Sorry Boogers but it ain't that easy. You were working with water hardening steel. The temper line will be right were you put the clay for simple carbon water hardening. However the Maganese(sp) in 01 will pull the temperline straight every time. Thats its job, it wants to make everything as even as possible. The trick is to get it to not be able to even the heat. Straight temperlines are easy. No clay is even needed. Just heat the edge and quench, it will be dead straight every time. Getting controled figure is not so easy.

Sorry that you are somehow offended that I will not layout all my work on your lap. God forbid folks actually wanting to earn their knowledge.:rolleyes:

The goal is to get a new maker heading in the right direction, and save him from a few common errors.

Nothing more to say on the subject.
 
I'm not offended in the least. I place posts to inform and read posts to learn. I share what I know and learned. Others place posts to ask questons and to give answers based on their experiences. I have learned much on this line and I can't think of one good reason not to share what I know. If you choose not to share thats your business but why brag about it. If everybody does'nt know already selective hardening is covered very well by engnath at www.engnath.com/public/intable.htm Notice the public part.
 
Like Silent said:...
"And Howard Clark makes katanas out of L6 with martensite edges and Bainite backs. It took him years and a lot of experimentation to perfect his heat treat. I wouldn't expect him to dish out his process just because I asked him. (Not that I don't want to know mind you!)"

Not to take sides on this issue of sharing intimate knowledge of techniques or not, but this is a highly subjective thing you guys. As far as Howard is concerned, I remember a time when he freely told everyone how he did his bainite back/martinsite edge super blades. No one listened or commented when the concept was unknown. Now that it and Howard have proved themselves everyone wants to know how it's done. Howard has said repeatedly that the information is "out there in the public domain" and available to all who seek it as desperately as he did. But giving it away won't help you any 'cause it's damn hard to do and most of us couldn't pull it off anyway.

I respect a makers right to withhold details on how some things are done as I don't believe that you necessarily do folks a big favor by lettin' them have the gravy without all the rest of the stuff that goes with the experience. It's the workin' for it that makes the finished product "valuable" in terms of spiritual accomplishment and plain old $ the way I see it.
:D

Brian
 
Well, people were talking bout O-1 and water not being tough. I just took 2 of my Diff edge quench in H2O, O-1 steel and out them to a flex test. 90 to the left, 90 to the right 3 times, before they snapped. Back was a soft grain, edge was a very fine grain structure. The blade were 1/8", full flat grind, and the edge quench was about 1/3 up the blade or so. They stayed bent when i went to 90 or 100 with them, and didnt straighten fully to tru, most liukely because the hard part was so narrow, but the resulting grain structure was really nice looking. I got more O-1 to play with, so I will post more results as I go.
 
Taz, I`m still a little skeptical about this water thing. you know like why all the instructions say oil, the manufacturers say oil, every machining book says oil, every mastersmith I`ve talked to says oil. and heck 99% of my knives are O-1 and have used oil on every one, and have tested alot, I`ve never had an O-1 blade crack or break from heat treat using oil.
I`m no expert here either, we are all learning, and maybe you do have something there but why does everyone say to use oil then?
not calling you a liar or anything just tryin to learn things. BUT I wanna see pics of your testing methods and results....seeing is believing!lets see some of these bent knives, end grain and other stuff.
I`ve been working with O-1 for quite a while now, and am able to get O-1 to bend the 90, but it`s not an easy task, everything must be done right. Quenching in oil at exactly the same temp every time, and so on. So I know that O-1 will bend, I just thought that maybe water would put too much stress in the steel to be tough!...O-1 is not known for it`s flexability you know.
Anyway enough rambling....Lets see some pics!:D
 
Well Sheeiit Mr. Clark all I did was ask and all you did was say get stuffed so I don't see the problem.

Mr. booger - I tried it and the line was straight just as Mr. Clark sez. Is there a functional advantage to the slightly wavy harmon on Mr. Clarks' blade? Probably not worth the trouble?

Taz - good to hear. My blade was not differentially quenched and I never got to temper it - maybe I'll try again someday.

Think I'll play with some 1095 and refractory for comparision of different harmons. After I read more.

regards all

Lynn
 
Well, i forgot my scanner and camera at school :(

As for the grain, I can send you the pieces if you want :) The blades flexed fairly easily, I think because the edge was hard, and about 2/3 of the blade was soft. 1/8" thick steel, full flat grinds, the steel is pretty flexible, probably too flexable. I'm gonna experiment with having more of the blade hardened and see how that affects the flexibility. The grain structure of the hard steel is very fine, you cant really see any light reflecting, looks like a very fine bead blast almost. And the back of the spine is a very large, coarse grain.

I started playing with water and O-1 cuz I left my oil at the machine shop and didnt have anything to quench in. The water i used was around 30 to 40 degrees. It seems like I am doing something right because it is very hard to see the grain at the edge, and the back has large, soft grain. I'll prob snap some more of the ones I HT and see how they did. Since the blades were only like 4" long, i clamped in the vise around 1/3 the way up the blade.
 
No Functional advantage that I now of. Just looks cool.

I never said get stuffed. I just think it is good for the maker to figure some stuff out on thier own. I have an open door in my shop and anyone is more than welcome to stop by. I will show them pretty much anything they want to know about knifemaking or sheath making. But when it comes to the fine points of manipulating steel. The fun is in solving the puzzle.

There is a reason that jigsaw puzzles come unassembled.

Taz, very cool. What Rc are you getting at the cutting edge?
 
Dont have a Rockwell Tester at all :(
 
I think the whole hamon thing is getting blown out of proportion. The Japanese (or whoever did it first) didnt create hamon for the blade, that was just what happened when they differentially heated the blade. And the whole purpose of that was to have a blade of length to have a hardened edge and flexability (I'm speaking in the simplest teams). Then I'm sure they manipulated the hamon for artistic reasons. I believe a hamon should be subtle as in the old style. When I first did it I used acid to bring it out. Now I polish up to 2000 grit and finish with diamond micron film (I havent gotten water stones yet)and it comes out great,teasing the eye but not taking away from the blade. But then again how flex does a 5" blade need.
 
Boogers, as far as I know, you are correct. The hamon started out as a side effect of the zone hardening process. Swordsmiths then started a game of one-up-manship (not really a game, they took it very serious) on figure. Many experts can ID a sword just by its hamon. Some schools of thought will argue that the highly figured hamons did have a purpose. They will say that with the pearlite dropping close to the cutting edge that it helped to avoid breakage by containing the stress to a smaller portion of the blade by not letting it travel the length of the cutting edge. I am just not sure if I buy that or not.

I still just think it looks cool.
 
RW
I buy it..
If you electric weld long beads you always stop and skip a space
every inch or two depending on what your doing ,, anyway this
will stop a crack from continuing into the next weld (bead)..
the hamon configuration would be the same
I think this was by design for this reason,
this is just my opinion
and some Japanese makers also.
 
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