Quenching oil question.

Phillip Patton

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
5,359
I recently called my local Chevron dealer, to ask him if he could find out what the equivalent would be for Texaco type A, and he said it would be Chevron 70. But the data sheet for Chevron 70 says the quench time is 10.5 seconds, and I read somewhere that Type A was around 28 seconds. That doesn't sound very equivalent to me. Does any one know what the best quenchant would be for steels like 5160 and 52100, since Type A is no longer available?
 
Phillip,

Kevin Davey (aka Coutel on knifenetwork) has found an excellent Chevron oil for those steels. You might want to send him a PM or email and ask what he bought.
 
I use Chevron 70 as well. My Primary steel has been 1084. However, I have used it with 5160, 9260, O1, 52100, 1095, and various other steels and find it to be an exceptional quenching oil.
 
Hi.

I did some paper comparisons on 7 quench oils.


Quenching oils times are based on a Drayton Quenchalizer reports...these give the times taken to cool to specific temperatures (usualy 200, 400 and 600C) as well as cooling rates taken at 300C and overall maximum cooling rates.

A snippet of the info I have...

Chevron 70 is shown as taking 7.5 seconds to cool to 600c (1112F), and Texaco type A is shown as 12.65 seconds..so Chevron 70 is faster in that respect, but overall cooling rate taken at 300C (572F) is 6.40 and 6.80 seconds respectively.




btw..Chevron 70 has almost identical times on paper to Texaco type C.
 
primos said:
I use Chevron 70 as well. My Primary steel has been 1084. However, I have used it with 5160, 9260, O1, 52100, 1095, and various other steels and find it to be an exceptional quenching oil.


It'll probably do the job. After reading Ed Fowlers stuff I was hoping for something more like what he has though.
BTW Terry, I really enjoyed the tutorials on your website. As a result of them, I no longer solder my guards. :)
 
Kevin Davey said:
Hi.

I did some paper comparisons on 7 quench oils.


Quenching oils times are based on a Drayton Quenchalizer reports...these give the times taken to cool to specific temperatures (usualy 200, 400 and 600C) as well as cooling rates taken at 300C and overall maximum cooling rates.

A snippet of the info I have...

Chevron 70 is shown as taking 7.5 seconds to cool to 600c (1112F), and Texaco type A is shown as 12.65 seconds..so Chevron 70 is faster in that respect, but overall cooling rate taken at 300C (572F) is 6.40 and 6.80 seconds respectively.


In my shop I have access to Chevron 70 and Texquench A.......and I predominantly use 52100 steel.....

I choose to use the Chevron 70 for my quenching as it gives a faster cooling time to 1000 F than type A.......

btw..Chevron 70 has almost identical times on paper to Texaco type C.


Thanks for the helpful info. Do you know how similar Chevron 70 and Parks AAA are?
I'd be happy with the 70, but my local dealer will only sell it to me by the 55 gallon drum. :-( And I read that Heatbath will sell smaller quantities of the AAA.
The oil I'm using now is a mixture of biodiesel, used atf fluid, vegetable oil, and motor oil. Smokes and stinks like crazy, and I have no idea if it's fast or slow. I'd like to know what I'm working with.
 
Phillip Patton said:
Thanks for the helpful info. Do you know how similar Chevron 70 and Parks AAA are?
I'd be happy with the 70, but my local dealer will only sell it to me by the 55 gallon drum. :-( And I read that Heatbath will sell smaller quantities of the AAA.

.


From the info I have available...


Chevron 70


time to reach 600 C/1112F..7.500 secs
..................400C/752F....11.500 secs
..................200C/392F....43.500 secs


Parks AAA



time to reach 600 C/1112F....8.374
................. 400 C/752F...12.500
................. 200 C/392F....48.625



Parks wouldnt sell me any oil when I was looking for some.

Buying the Chevron was easy from my local dealer, but I too had to purchase 55 gallons...an expensive route when when you have to purchase the drum and shipping as well!...but I managed to sell the excess I didnt need.

I have not been able to find out what the test samples used were..or if the test sample size/steel is consistant in each and every test.....!

Cooling rates for blade shaped objects would obviously differ.
 
There is a reason why I have over 200 gallons of Texaco type A on hand. We have not been able to achieve results equal to what we can get from using Type A. If there was a slower oil we would give it a try.
It may be possible to slow faster oils down by using an interrupted quench of sorts. You will have to experiment to know.
I hear that Type oil is available if you can purchase something like 1,800 at one hit.
Good Luck
 
BTW..Ed..if your looking for a slower oil, I think Chevron do an oil called 'Utilty LV1 ISO22'..I dont have all the info on it , but on the Quenchalyzer reports I have from Chevron,, it shows the time to reach 600C (1120F) as being 15.250 seconds..compared to Type A which is shown at 12.625 seconds..

and 22.250 seconds to reach 400C (752F) compared to 19.125 seconds for Type A.
 
Ed Fowler said:
There is a reason why I have over 200 gallons of Texaco type A on hand. We have not been able to achieve results equal to what we can get from using Type A. If there was a slower oil we would give it a try.
It may be possible to slow faster oils down by using an interrupted quench of sorts. You will have to experiment to know.
I hear that Type oil is available if you can purchase something like 1,800 at one hit.
Good Luck


Hi Ed, thanks for chipping in.
Wouldn't axle grease be slower than most things? ;-)
I've heard (maybe from your writings) that Type A is basically mineral oil. Can't mineral oil be had from other places? Or maybe there are some differences...
BTW, I think you've ruined me. Since reading your books, knife performance is about all I think about anymore. :-)
 
Thank you Gentlemen:
We have tried faster oils, both Cheveron and Conoco Pale Paraffin and naturally faster oils like Brownell's tough Quench. None of them gave us results like the Type A, some cut well, but tough was not present.
Texaco type A is a heavy mineral oil, and there are light mineral oils, they quench faster. 'Utilty LV1 ISO22' is new to me, I will try to come up with some and give it a try, thanks for the information.

The more additives in the oil the quicker it will change its influence on the steel over using virgin oil.

We speed up Texaco Type A slightly by pre-heating the oil to 165 degrees f.
I learned this by accident when I was quenching several blades, the oil heated above the recommended 135 f. and the last blade cut better with greater toughness and strength.

The number of thermal cycles is also important, the more the better during the forging process as long as steel temp does not exceed 1625 f. especially when it comes to toughness. The finer the grain you develop, the lower the temperature where grain will grow, this is why multiple quench works so well, it is all related to time and temp.

Slow oil, I believe, is beneficial in that with 52100 and 5160 they keep changing over time, that is why 24 hour cycles during hardening and tempeing works so well. During the last seminar I hurried cycels to 12 hours. One medium sized blade flexed to 90 degrees with only 55 foot pounds force, I let it sit for 30 days and it took over 100 foot pounds to flex it to 180. This is why all my blades wait for finish grinding in my freezer.

The change cannot be explained by measured retained austenite, as there was none measurable, something else happens, but our laboratory equipment cannot evaluate it. The bladesmith can demonstrate the results by testing in his own shop with no equipment other than hemp rope, a steel rod to flex the edge and a torque wrench along with liberal quantities of tincture of time and a thick skin to avoid listening too much to critics are all that is needed.

There are so many variables to consider that one man cannot do it alone, the more who join in the quest the greater will be our success, thanks for the support.

If you have any more comments or questions feel free to join in.
 
Kevin,
I just looked on the chevron website, and I couldn't find any 'Utilty LV1 ISO22'. I did find some ISO22 hydraulic and heat transfer oils. Are these the same things?
 
Ed,

I still have some of the chevron light utility oil around here some place if you would like to play with it. It is the oil that I was using when I first started. I can say from experiance that this oil will work with 52100 but Our heat treating method will have to be tweaked slightly to get the best performance.

Bill
 
Phillip Patton said:
Kevin,
I just looked on the chevron website, and I couldn't find any 'Utilty LV1 ISO22'. I did find some ISO22 hydraulic and heat transfer oils. Are these the same things?

Hi

I didnt find it on the internet..a Chevron lab rep faxed it to me.

Its a Quenchalyzer comparison report conducted Feb 2000 on:

Chevron Utility LVI ISO22 (LVI22)
Chevron Utility HV1 ISO100(HVI 100)
and Chev Quench 70.



If u contact your Chevron dealer he should be able to give you a telephone number of the lab techs who can help you out and e mail or fax any reports. I found them very helpful...just dont tell them you only want 5 gallons:)

Maybe the LVI and HVI are not designated as quenching oils...they may have used those two oils as comparisons just to show how much more efficient Chevron 70 is as a 'quenching' oil (much faster)?

If you have a fax, I can send u a copy...pm me.
....same goes for anyone else.
 
If you need somthing like TexacoType A in smaller quantities you might try McMaster Carr Supply they have a slow and fast quench oils by the gallon the slow is pretty much mineral oil and is rated at about the same speed (I think it was a touch slower) than Type A.

Tim
 
Ed,thanks for the good info and all your experiences.BTW did you ever make that persimmon wood handled knife?
Stacy
 
Hello Stacey:
Not yet, haven't finished a knife for some time thanks to a shoulder injury, but getting beter all the time. In the mean time it is still carefully and steadly aging in my shop.
Thanks Again
 
I just ordered and received 10 gallons of Parks #50 from Heatbath for $100 + $38 shipping.

Tom at Heatbath will sell in small quantities but with a $100 minimum.

I got his email right here on BF. tom@heatbath.com

I used to think any oil would do, BOY was I wrong. Get the right oil for the steel you use, it makes a huge difference :thumbup:
 
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