Quenching oil question.

I just found on the web a company (STE Oil Company) that will sell food or tech grade mineral oil in gallon, 5 gallon, and 55 gallon sizes in viscosities ranging from 70 to 500. Does anyone know what the viscosity of Texaco type A is, and is viscocity related to quench speed? I think the viscosity of Chevron 70 is 87.
 
......To compare viscosity's like for like, ambient fluid temperature needs to be taken into account.

The measurement of viscosity has an inverse relationship to temperature.......ie... viscosity falls as the temperature rises ...('Poiselles Law')

so any comparison of Tex A would need to be at that same temperature to make any sense....unless there is some formulae that can be used?
 
Just been reading thru the info I have collected.

Chevron 70 is shown as having a Viscosity (Saybolt)........... SUS @ 100F.......82

By comparison, Parkes Heatbath AAA quench oil at 100F is 85 (averaged between SUS 75 and 95), but at 140F it changes to SUS 57.7 ...so you can see how much difference the temperature makes...(...I think water is around an SUS of 5?)

When quenching, we tend to pre heat the oil ....Ed mentioned he preheats his oil to around 165 F..so that will effect the viscosity immensley and will result in a faster quench speed.


Here is a good link I found on Quenchtex products which should give you a lot of info for comparisons, including the viscosity.

http://library.cbest.chevron.com/lubes/compprd9.nsf/b1aad6c2b425fc2588256b6b007699cb/f8ec92a379720fce88256b6f00717ba4/$FILE/MWF-2250.pdf



Chevron 70 and Texaco Type C quenching oils.... are very similar (if not identical) when comparing data...

Hope this helps some.
 
Yes the link to the chevron oils data sheet is very helpful, thank you.
Here's the link to the data sheet for the oil I'm considering:
http://www.steoil.com/pdfs/techdata-crystalplus200fg.pdf
At 100 degrees F, SUS viscosity is 205. Ed says a slower oil would be better, so maybe this would be ideal.
That is, if viscosity is directly related to speed, which seems logical.
 
Phillip Patton said:
Yes the link to the chevron oils data sheet is very helpful, thank you.
Here's the link to the data sheet for the oil I'm considering:
http://www.steoil.com/pdfs/techdata-crystalplus200fg.pdf
At 100 degrees F, SUS viscosity is 205. Ed says a slower oil would be better, so maybe this would be ideal.
That is, if viscosity is directly related to speed, which seems logical.
Click to expand...


Viscosity is a factor , but there is a bigger picture..... you also have to take into account speed / temperature at the different phase points (vapor,boiling and convection phases) to give a tru idea of the quenching process.......For a more realistic comparison, you would need to compare lab quench test data (and your own testing).

If you particularly want something that performs like Texaco type A..why not ask Ed to sell you some of the real stuff.:p

or


I am in Tn and I have 5 gallons of Tex A that I could sell to you for the same price I purchased it ...but I am not going to ship it..collect only.:)
 
Kevin Davey said:
The viscosity of that oil is almost double the figure given for Tex A at the same temperature.

Viscosity is a factor in cooling, but you also have to take into account speed and temperatures at the different phase points (vapor,boiling and convection phases) to give a tru idea of the quenching process.......To make a more realistic comparison, you would need to get a lab to conduct quench tests (Drayton Quenchalyzer).

If you particularly want something that performs like Texaco type A..why not ask Ed to sell you some of the real stuff.:p

or


I am in Tn and I have 5 gallons of Tex A that I could sell to you for the same price I purchased it ...but I am not going to ship it..collect only.:)
Click to expand...


I might ask him. Do you know if that's waht he has in mind for the 200 gallons he has? He did say slower would be better, and I suspect this stuff would be.
Thanks for the offer. If I'm ever in your area, I'll take you up on it.:)
 
GUys,

There's a lot more expertise on this thread than I could ever add...

and there are a many threads in every knife forum that talk about it in depth...

But viscosity does play a role...

Especially if we are talking about pre-heated quench oil...

and then kick in the idea of vapor jackets...

Not trying to side track the thread...just adding some...

Shane
 
You ask what my plans are for the 200 gallons of Texaco Type A? I plan to love, cherish and enjoy it, my way.
 
Ed Fowler said:
You ask what my plans are for the 200 gallons of Texaco Type A? I plan to love, cherish and enjoy it, my way.
Click to expand...

Does that mean no? You won't hurt my feelings if does, it's certainly yours to do with as you will...
What's your opinion of this stuff? http://www.steoil.com/pdfs/techdata-crystalplus200fg.pdf
Do you thinks it's a viable alternative, or is the viscosity too high?
 
Well I just had a thought. A 55 gallon drum would be enough to set up for swords without having the container be super narrow or otherwise less convenient..so its not to be dismissed out of hand getting it that way.
 
Yes, but how would you go about heating and re-heating a 55 gallon drum before each quenching session?

John Frankl
 
I have two quenching tanks. One is vertical, about 3 feet tall, made from 6 inch steel pipe. The other is horizontal, about 2 1/2 feet long 6" tall 6" wide. The horizontal one has a water heater element installed, for preheating the oil. It heats it up to 150 degrees F, and holds it there, without a thermostat.
 
I have a couple of questions here.
There seems to be a lot of talk about slow quenching oils, but with a high carbon steel like 52100, with a small window to get past the pearlite nose on a ttt chart, wouldn't you fail to get a full transformation to martensite? pearlite may be tough, but it isn't strong or wear resistant.
Also, if you could clear something else up for me, Mr, Fowler, you said that you speed up your type A quenchant by heating it to 165 instead of the 135 recommended temperature if you are looking to speed up your oil, wouldn't a faster oil work just as well?
 
IronWolf said:
I have a couple of questions here.
There seems to be a lot of talk about slow quenching oils, but with a high carbon steel like 52100, with a small window to get past the pearlite nose on a ttt chart, wouldn't you fail to get a full transformation to martensite? pearlite may be tough, but it isn't strong or wear resistant.
Also, if you could clear something else up for me, Mr, Fowler, you said that you speed up your type A quenchant by heating it to 165 instead of the 135 recommended temperature if you are looking to speed up your oil, wouldn't a faster oil work just as well?
Click to expand...
52100 has a much larger quench window than say 10XX, W1, W2, longer soak time and slower oil is benifical for 52100 as it is for 01, L6 and 5160.

I am interested in the answer for the 2nd part of your question.
 
When hardening we heat the slowly blade to just above critical, quench, allow the blade to cool down in the oil to room temp, then put the blade in the freezer. 24 hours later another quench and cool down, then another 24 hours and quench again, then again to freezer then 24 hours later start tempering cycles ( again we use 24 hour or grreater cycles).

With the multiple cycles, we avoid the necessity of soaking at critical temp. The finer the grain in the steel, the lower the temp at which grain will grow. We have achieved grain size of 14 and finer, when we started a #10 grain was only theoritical and had never been achieved in 52100 as far as we know.

The last test blades were again 14 and finer, and we had a #10 in the soft spine. The prime ingrediant of tough is fine grain.

What we have achieved took over 8 years of constant experimenting, the elevation of quench oil temp was again slowly developed. Could we maybe use a faster oil ? Maybe, but after poutting the hundreds of hours into test blades that were sacraficed in getting where we are today, I am more than a little reluctant to change oils, or steel. We have tons of this 52100 steel and it has proven highly consistent, all from the same pour. All the oil I have used is from the same batch also.

Our experiments continue, but in a straight line, changing one variable at a time. The 165 f temp is within range of recomended quench temp but on the high end.

Maybe one day we will change oil, but we still have many variables to play with and I would hate to change a basic variable at this time. Some of you younger blade smiths may wish to experiment and I encourage you to do so. My strong suggeston is that you test every experimental blade for tough, cut, and strong. You can do it in your shop with material readilly available in any hareware store. I strongly encourage those of you who want to make high endurance performance blades to etch all the blades you harden, I do not believe there is a better way to improve your heat treat methods, you will learn to read the etch and have great insight in to what you have acomplished. When you figure you have achieved something great, find a metalurgist and invest in some lab work. You will find it a little tough to find a man of science who is not religously bound by the traditioins of his educaton, but when you find one you can communticate with you will know good times. Ours is the art, let the science explain what we have achieved.

There is a lot more to it than I have described, but those who have read my books and seen my video will understand, those who attend our seminars will understand still more, as they have learned by watching and doing themselves.

I am now working on a book that will have more information,hopefullly in a couple of years it will be ready for publication. The problem is that we learn more all the time and each lesson is another chapter.
 
I have 5 gallons of Texico type A and while it'll last a very long time and at the time couldn't have afforded more I wish that I'd bought anouther 10 or 15 gallons.

I know of a master smith that uses Vet Grade heavy minneral oil with excellent results and I've tried it but don't get the result that I get with Texico type A. Maybe I just need to experiment more with it. As long as your willing to experiment with your methouds and materials just about any quench oil in the same range should work provided it's consistant and you eleminate all the variables you can.

If I was to start looking for a replacement for type A I'd start with vet grade heavy minneral oil and play with oil temps till I got the results I wanted.
 
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