Question about Busse knives tempering.

Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
285
Hey Y'all, one more in a LONG list of inane questions. Sorry if I'm getting tedious. I'm am wondering whether using a fire steel with a Busse could damage the temper of blade. Specifically I'm curious about using a fire steel along the spine (or elf choil) of a Basic 7 or using it on the jimping grooves of a SAR8. I know the heat generated by a firesteel can be an issue for knives when using the cutting edge to create a spark. Any thoughts?
 
I don't know where you get your prior knowledge but if you paid for it ... you deserve a refund!

The tempering stats for Infi are not available ... some knifesmiths maintain Infi is a modified form of A8 Steel. It is'nt according to Jerry but no doubt in terms of tempering we are going to be there or there abouts. "There abouts" is all you need to answer your query. Here are the stats ...





" A-8 is a versatile, air-hardening tool and die steel. It combines good wearing qualities with excellent toughness characteristics. It is well suited for many metals working dies and punches, which operate in the hardness of Rockwell C 55-60. The intermediate carbon and alloy content of A-8 gives it an optimum balance of toughness and wear resistance, makes it particularly adaptable for those applications which are too severe for high carbon-high chromium steels and too abrasive for conventional shock resisting steels.

In the hot work field, A-8 is used with outstanding success whenever erosion, wash, and wear of the lower carbon hot work steels is the primary problem. Because of its higher carbon content, A-8 should NOT BE used where heat checking or breakage is the primary cause of failure. Hot work tools of A-8 may be water-cooled in use if desired.

A-8 should be preheated at 1300-1400º F, then transferred to a furnace at 1825-1850º F soaked at this temperature for 30 minutes for sections 1 inch and thinner, then air cooled. Sections over 1 inch in thickness should be soaked for an additional 10 – 15 minutes per inch and then air-cooled. A-8 normally is air cooled from the hardening temperature, although for some applications it may be oil quenched. When the pieces have cooled to room temperature, temper immediately.

Temper A-8 immediately after quenching to room temperature. Allow to heat slowly to the desired tempering temperature and hold for a period of 1 to 6 hours, depending upon the size. Remove from the furnace and allow to cool in the still air. For most cold work applications, tempering should be carried out in the range of 300-600º F or higher. Double tempering is recommended for best results with temperature above 600º F

A-8 is an oversized material,

Flats


+/- .015 upto .040 on thickness

+/- .080 upto .125 on width

Rounds


Up to 1" +/- .007 upto .018

1" up to 6" +/- .015 upto .040

6" and up +/- .0625 upto .250

Hardening Temp: 1800ºF thru 1850ºF


Quench Medium: Air Salt Bath


Tempering Range: 300ºF thru 1100ºF


Typical Level: 49 to 61 R/C

Preheat Forging: 1450ºF thru 1550ºF


Forging Temp: 2100ºF thru 2200ºF



Anneal Temp: 1600ºF
Anneal Cooling Method:

Furnace cool to 1000ºF at 100ºF per hr.

Then air cool.

Anneal Hardness: 241 BHN


* Double Tempering is Recommend.


A-8 Material in Stock Color Code: YELLOW and BLACK
Flat Dimensions:




1 ½" x 2" up to 4" x 6"
Non standard sizes, quoted upon request

Round Dimensions: ¾" up to 2 ½"
Non standard sizes, quoted upon request

A-8 Typical Analysis C
Mn
Si
Cr
Mo
W

.55%
.30
.30%
5.00
1.25
1.25


· Slight variations from typical analysis shown may occur in order to maintain the desired graphitizing potential."


I am no knife maker ... nor am I an engineer ... nor do I want to get into an arguement whether Infi resembles A8 ... pick any other steel and you will see similar temperatures ... of which the important one is that "the minimum" tempering temperature is 300F and this goes to 1100F.

When you make a knife you basically "harden" the steel which enables it to take an edge and then you temper the blade to stop it from being fragile and capable of shattering upon impact. This gives strength and malleability. These last two points Infi is famous for and from some information released by Jerry they go to great lengths when tempering the blade ... including cyrogenic cooling etc ... to relieve the stress in the balde after the tempering process has been completed.

So to alter the temper on the knife so it is weakened you need to have the through section heated to 300F .

Now, it may be the case that the spark generated from a ferro rod is "white hot" ... certainly a hotter spark than that generated from flint ... but allowing for the air surrounding the spark and how cooling is going to be induced because of this ... the liklihood that the sparks even remotely affect the temper of the steel to damage the knife is so far removed from reality IMO as to warrant no concern at all.

Ditto using belt sanders to sharpen blades ... another firm favourite issue raised by many who have'nt done sharpening by this method and are quick to criticise it's use ... even polishing Infi using this method ... it is the same answer ...

Unless the knife is at 300F it ain't going to happen ... here the knife is too hot to touch ... capable of sizzling any water it was immersed in ... and to give an idea of the heat required turn your oven on to this temperature and when the light goes out to say it is reached ... open the door ... the "heat" wave is "huge" ... never mind picking anything up that has been in there.

So as to ferro rods damaging the temper on knives ... I would have to say no on all counts. Perhaps not with a certainty born from making them or being a metalurgist ... but from a common sense ability to read and understand the above and from years and years of use.:thumbup:
 
I don't know where you get your prior knowledge but if you paid for it ... you deserve a refund!

The tempering stats for Infi are not available ... some knifesmiths maintain Infi is a modified form of A8 Steel. It is'nt according to Jerry but no doubt in terms of tempering we are going to be there or there abouts. "There abouts" is all you need to answer your query. Here are the stats ...





" A-8 is a versatile, air-hardening tool and die steel. It combines good wearing qualities with excellent toughness characteristics. It is well suited for many metals working dies and punches, which operate in the hardness of Rockwell C 55-60. The intermediate carbon and alloy content of A-8 gives it an optimum balance of toughness and wear resistance, makes it particularly adaptable for those applications which are too severe for high carbon-high chromium steels and too abrasive for conventional shock resisting steels.

In the hot work field, A-8 is used with outstanding success whenever erosion, wash, and wear of the lower carbon hot work steels is the primary problem. Because of its higher carbon content, A-8 should NOT BE used where heat checking or breakage is the primary cause of failure. Hot work tools of A-8 may be water-cooled in use if desired.

A-8 should be preheated at 1300-1400º F, then transferred to a furnace at 1825-1850º F soaked at this temperature for 30 minutes for sections 1 inch and thinner, then air cooled. Sections over 1 inch in thickness should be soaked for an additional 10 – 15 minutes per inch and then air-cooled. A-8 normally is air cooled from the hardening temperature, although for some applications it may be oil quenched. When the pieces have cooled to room temperature, temper immediately.

Temper A-8 immediately after quenching to room temperature. Allow to heat slowly to the desired tempering temperature and hold for a period of 1 to 6 hours, depending upon the size. Remove from the furnace and allow to cool in the still air. For most cold work applications, tempering should be carried out in the range of 300-600º F or higher. Double tempering is recommended for best results with temperature above 600º F

A-8 is an oversized material,

Flats


+/- .015 upto .040 on thickness

+/- .080 upto .125 on width

Rounds


Up to 1" +/- .007 upto .018

1" up to 6" +/- .015 upto .040

6" and up +/- .0625 upto .250

Hardening Temp: 1800ºF thru 1850ºF


Quench Medium: Air Salt Bath


Tempering Range: 300ºF thru 1100ºF


Typical Level: 49 to 61 R/C

Preheat Forging: 1450ºF thru 1550ºF


Forging Temp: 2100ºF thru 2200ºF



Anneal Temp: 1600ºF
Anneal Cooling Method:

Furnace cool to 1000ºF at 100ºF per hr.

Then air cool.

Anneal Hardness: 241 BHN


* Double Tempering is Recommend.


A-8 Material in Stock Color Code: YELLOW and BLACK
Flat Dimensions:




1 ½" x 2" up to 4" x 6"
Non standard sizes, quoted upon request

Round Dimensions: ¾" up to 2 ½"
Non standard sizes, quoted upon request

A-8 Typical Analysis C
Mn
Si
Cr
Mo
W

.55%
.30
.30%
5.00
1.25
1.25


· Slight variations from typical analysis shown may occur in order to maintain the desired graphitizing potential."


I am no knife maker ... nor am I an engineer ... nor do I want to get into an arguement whether Infi resembles A8 ... pick any other steel and you will see similar temperatures ... of which the important one is that "the minimum" tempering temperature is 300F and this goes to 1100F.

When you make a knife you basically "harden" the steel which enables it to take an edge and then you temper the blade to stop it from being fragile and capable of shattering upon impact. This gives strength and malleability. These last two points Infi is famous for and from some information released by Jerry they go to great lengths when tempering the blade ... including cyrogenic cooling etc ... to relieve the stress in the balde after the tempering process has been completed.

So to alter the temper on the knife so it is weakened you need to have the through section heated to 300F .

Now, it may be the case that the spark generated from a ferro rod is "white hot" ... certainly a hotter spark than that generated from flint ... but allowing for the air surrounding the spark and how cooling is going to be induced because of this ... the liklihood that the sparks even remotely affect the temper of the steel to damage the knife is so far removed from reality IMO as to warrant no concern at all.

Ditto using belt sanders to sharpen blades ... another firm favourite issue raised by many who have'nt done sharpening by this method and are quick to criticise it's use ... even polishing Infi using this method ... it is the same answer ...

Unless the knife is at 300F it ain't going to happen ... here the knife is too hot to touch ... capable of sizzling any water it was immersed in ... and to give an idea of the heat required turn your oven on to this temperature and when the light goes out to say it is reached ... open the door ... the "heat" wave is "huge" ... never mind picking anything up that has been in there.

So as to ferro rods damaging the temper on knives ... I would have to say no on all counts. Perhaps not with a certainty born from making them or being a metalurgist ... but from a common sense ability to read and understand the above and from years and years of use.

I was just gonna say "I doubt it"
 
I don't know where you get your prior knowledge but if you paid for it ... you deserve a refund!

The tempering stats for Infi are not available ... some knifesmiths maintain Infi is a modified form of A8 Steel. It is'nt according to Jerry but no doubt in terms of tempering we are going to be there or there abouts. "There abouts" is all you need to answer your query. Here are the stats ...





" A-8 is a versatile, air-hardening tool and die steel. It combines good wearing qualities with excellent toughness characteristics. It is well suited for many metals working dies and punches, which operate in the hardness of Rockwell C 55-60. The intermediate carbon and alloy content of A-8 gives it an optimum balance of toughness and wear resistance, makes it particularly adaptable for those applications which are too severe for high carbon-high chromium steels and too abrasive for conventional shock resisting steels.

In the hot work field, A-8 is used with outstanding success whenever erosion, wash, and wear of the lower carbon hot work steels is the primary problem. Because of its higher carbon content, A-8 should NOT BE used where heat checking or breakage is the primary cause of failure. Hot work tools of A-8 may be water-cooled in use if desired.

A-8 should be preheated at 1300-1400º F, then transferred to a furnace at 1825-1850º F soaked at this temperature for 30 minutes for sections 1 inch and thinner, then air cooled. Sections over 1 inch in thickness should be soaked for an additional 10 – 15 minutes per inch and then air-cooled. A-8 normally is air cooled from the hardening temperature, although for some applications it may be oil quenched. When the pieces have cooled to room temperature, temper immediately.

Temper A-8 immediately after quenching to room temperature. Allow to heat slowly to the desired tempering temperature and hold for a period of 1 to 6 hours, depending upon the size. Remove from the furnace and allow to cool in the still air. For most cold work applications, tempering should be carried out in the range of 300-600º F or higher. Double tempering is recommended for best results with temperature above 600º F

A-8 is an oversized material,

Flats


+/- .015 upto .040 on thickness

+/- .080 upto .125 on width

Rounds


Up to 1" +/- .007 upto .018

1" up to 6" +/- .015 upto .040

6" and up +/- .0625 upto .250

Hardening Temp: 1800ºF thru 1850ºF


Quench Medium: Air Salt Bath


Tempering Range: 300ºF thru 1100ºF


Typical Level: 49 to 61 R/C

Preheat Forging: 1450ºF thru 1550ºF


Forging Temp: 2100ºF thru 2200ºF



Anneal Temp: 1600ºF
Anneal Cooling Method:

Furnace cool to 1000ºF at 100ºF per hr.

Then air cool.

Anneal Hardness: 241 BHN


* Double Tempering is Recommend.


A-8 Material in Stock Color Code: YELLOW and BLACK
Flat Dimensions:




1 ½" x 2" up to 4" x 6"
Non standard sizes, quoted upon request

Round Dimensions: ¾" up to 2 ½"
Non standard sizes, quoted upon request

A-8 Typical Analysis C
Mn
Si
Cr
Mo
W

.55%
.30
.30%
5.00
1.25
1.25


· Slight variations from typical analysis shown may occur in order to maintain the desired graphitizing potential."


I am no knife maker ... nor am I an engineer ... nor do I want to get into an arguement whether Infi resembles A8 ... pick any other steel and you will see similar temperatures ... of which the important one is that "the minimum" tempering temperature is 300F and this goes to 1100F.

When you make a knife you basically "harden" the steel which enables it to take an edge and then you temper the blade to stop it from being fragile and capable of shattering upon impact. This gives strength and malleability. These last two points Infi is famous for and from some information released by Jerry they go to great lengths when tempering the blade ... including cyrogenic cooling etc ... to relieve the stress in the balde after the tempering process has been completed.

So to alter the temper on the knife so it is weakened you need to have the through section heated to 300F .

Now, it may be the case that the spark generated from a ferro rod is "white hot" ... certainly a hotter spark than that generated from flint ... but allowing for the air surrounding the spark and how cooling is going to be induced because of this ... the liklihood that the sparks even remotely affect the temper of the steel to damage the knife is so far removed from reality IMO as to warrant no concern at all.

Ditto using belt sanders to sharpen blades ... another firm favourite issue raised by many who have'nt done sharpening by this method and are quick to criticise it's use ... even polishing Infi using this method ... it is the same answer ...

Unless the knife is at 300F it ain't going to happen ... here the knife is too hot to touch ... capable of sizzling any water it was immersed in ... and to give an idea of the heat required turn your oven on to this temperature and when the light goes out to say it is reached ... open the door ... the "heat" wave is "huge" ... never mind picking anything up that has been in there.

So as to ferro rods damaging the temper on knives ... I would have to say no on all counts. Perhaps not with a certainty born from making them or being a metalurgist ... but from a common sense ability to read and understand the above and from years and years of use.:thumbup:

Wow...
 
I can't remember where it came up but, I had run across a knifemaker making the claim that the the heat generated from the sparks could damage the temper. I believe he was referring using the knife cutting edge. As for going strictly by temperature and "common sense" then using your knife to poke around the hot coals of a campfire should be OK too and THAT will definitely take the temper out of, at least some, blades.
 
Last edited:
Somewhere Jerry said that an INFI blade has to reach 900F to lose it's temper. Sustained grinding on a thin edge might be a risk, but I have a hard time believing that scraping the edge on a firesteel could be any problem.
 
If a blade is badly tempered ... some knife makers may use all sorts of excuses rather than damage their name and ego ... that is a lot more likely IMO than ferro rods damaging the temper ...

As to poking round the coals in a fire with a knife ... I guess it would boil down to "for how long" ... leave the knife in the coals for a prolonged time and perhaps so ... use the knife to lift out a mess tin or to rake up some coals to get the fire going again in the morning ... people have been doing this I suspect for years without issues ... I know I have ... and all my knives have never suffered.

I don't understand the Post Script issue about SHTF ?

Basically ... it might pay you to upgrade to "Gold" so you can do a search on the forum if Basic membership does'nt let you do it ... a lot of these things have been addressed by many people many times in the past ... then you can filter through answers from guys who are "makers" ... including Jerry and his posts on tempering and what is done to enable his knives to stand up to abuse much more than other makers ...

That way you can get answers from the top if this helps ...
 
Ummmm.....personally I liked Peters post. Heh...no room to argue and really good info. I'll be saving it for later to give it a better read.

To answer the OP...No it won't. I use my Busses many times on the edge and spine with a fire steel. All it ever does to them is make them giggle.
 
The sparks from a firesteel are very hot but I do not see them being in contact with the steel long enough to heat it up.
 
What he said...900*

QUOTE=resinguy;11053906]Somewhere Jerry said that an INFI blade has to reach 900F to lose it's temper. Sustained grinding on a thin edge might be a risk, but I have a hard time believing that scraping the edge on a firesteel could be any problem.[/QUOTE]


From a firesteel site...

Warning: FireSteels are SERIOUS fire making gear completely understand the potential hazards posed by bright, hot, 5,500 degree sparks produced by FireSteels.
 
Last edited:
What he said...900*

QUOTE=resinguy;11053906]Somewhere Jerry said that an INFI blade has to reach 900F to lose it's temper. Sustained grinding on a thin edge might be a risk, but I have a hard time believing that scraping the edge on a firesteel could be any problem.


From a firesteel site...

Warning: FireSteels are SERIOUS fire making gear completely understand the potential hazards posed by bright, hot, 5,500 degree sparks produced by FireSteels.[/QUOTE]

Good info. I prefer a hacksaw blade or such for firesteels anyway.
 
Any member level can search, one does not have to be Gold level.


A spark from a firesteel may well be 5500F, but because it has practically no mass, it carries very little heat. The fleeting contact of the firesteel with the edge of the knife offers limited time for the conduction of any heat, and therefore the knife steel is unlikely to gain any appreciable temperature.


Scrape away!
 
I don't understand the Post Script issue about SHTF ?

Sorry dude, I just noticed this. All I typed was PS and the G..dam piece of crap editor filled in the rest from a title I used days ago. I don't know if it's my Mac or the website but the efforts being made to get the computer to do everything for you is starting to get idiotic.
 
Any member level can search, one does not have to be Gold level.


A spark from a firesteel may well be 5500F, but because it has practically no mass, it carries very little heat. The fleeting contact of the firesteel with the edge of the knife offers limited time for the conduction of any heat, and therefore the knife steel is unlikely to gain any appreciable temperature.


Scrape away!

Ah someone who intuitively understands the difference between temperature and thermal energy.:thumbup:
 
Any member level can search, one does not have to be Gold level.


A spark from a firesteel may well be 5500F, but because it has practically no mass, it carries very little heat. The fleeting contact of the firesteel with the edge of the knife offers limited time for the conduction of any heat, and therefore the knife steel is unlikely to gain any appreciable temperature.


Scrape away!

But does the edge being of an extremely thin cross section make it a better heat conducer within the localized area of thinness, even given a small amount of high temperature?


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Mistress?p=1072742&highlight=1050#post1072742
It is difficult, at best, to ascertain the condition of your knife without seeing it in person. If you would like to send it to the shop, we will gladly give it a once over. You may have stumbled onto a great buy as we have sold most of the Collector Grade BMs under the serial #50 for $900.00 - $1200.00. The collector grade sold out almost immediately with only 500 being produced. We are currently sending out the last of the breed.

As for INFI and temperature extremes, it is amazing. INFI is tempered at nearly 950 degrees. It does not begin to lose any significant hardness until it is held above 1050 degrees for a considerable amount of time. I have to believe that it would need to be extremely mishandled in order to do any noticeable damage.

Most of the simpler high carbon steels (of which INFI is NOT a member) can be drawn down in temper in a matter of seconds if the temperature hits above 500 - 800 degrees. Along the thin edge of a knife, a buffer or dremel can produce this level of heat and can cause serious damage if not executed by a professional. Always check the grade of steel and heat-treat specs. before assassinating it with the dremel tool Uncle Leo gave you for Christmas. Always keep the steel cool to the touch and you should be fine.

As far as INFI is concerned, care for and feed it like a friend. If the blade does get warm pour beer over it to cool it down. Stories out of Africa indicate that “Beer Tempering” only increases the performance of the steel. Is this true? I question nothing I hear from our friends in Africa.

Jerry Busse



[This message has been edited by Jerry Busse (edited 03-06-2000).]
 
You must have done some real digging to find that LVC ... all the way back to 2000 !

I wonder what the guy has done with his SHBM ? I am guessing here but the darkening of the handle ... where the guy thought it might have been near a fire ... I would put that down to the oils in our hands ... I have a few linen micarta grips and all go darker from use ...

Good to hear the high temps Jerry feels would be needed before Infi was damaged on it's temper as well ... they are actually much higher than I would have thought ...
 
Most of the simpler high carbon steels (of which INFI is NOT a member) can be drawn down in temper in a matter of seconds if the temperature hits above 500 - 800 degrees. Along the thin edge of a knife, a buffer or dremel can produce this level of heat and can cause serious damage if not executed by a professional. Always check the grade of steel and heat-treat specs. before assassinating it with the dremel tool Uncle Leo gave you for Christmas. Always keep the steel cool to the touch and you should be fine.
[This message has been edited by Jerry Busse (edited 03-06-2000).]

Tolja! :D
I once took a basic carbon steel hunting knife (a Buck I think) and poked around the fire coals for a few seconds. That was enough to take the temper out of the knife and it immediately warped.
 
You must have done some real digging to find that LVC ... all the way back to 2000 !

I wonder what the guy has done with his SHBM ? I am guessing here but the darkening of the handle ... where the guy thought it might have been near a fire ... I would put that down to the oils in our hands ... I have a few linen micarta grips and all go darker from use ...

Good to hear the high temps Jerry feels would be needed before Infi was damaged on it's temper as well ... they are actually much higher than I would have thought ...

Hey Peter,
What do you think. Should I get Garth to put an asymmetrical edge on the SAR8 he's doing up for me? :D
 
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