Question about fragility in D2 blades

[Jason B.]

friction stir welding as done by diamondbladeknives produces tougher D2 (superfine grain, you can bend more)

http://www.diamondbladeknives.com/faq.aspx

From what I've heard their not so great.

 

[midnight flyer]

BLUNTRUTH4U's reviews are very good (except for his negative review of the Tenacious) and his tests are fair. That said, I never got any chipped edges chopping wood either. It's simply not a tough a task as it seems, the wood simply absorbs the shock. If you use the exact same chop against a rock instead of wood, for example, the impulse would be 100x greater.

I've only seen a couple of his videos, and while not scientific, I agree they seem pretty good. It is good to hear he put out a negative on the Tenacious as that certainly sets him aside from the fanboy pack. I can't imagine what he didn't like about it, though.

I've not used the RAT 7 D2, it may very well be extremely tough. My experience with D2 is, if you're just doing everyday tasks, and periodically check the edge on your D2 blade with a microscope, you'll notice small chips. It happens when you hit a staple as you cut cardboard, or cut metal wire, or even a coated Tylenol tablet. Sometimes the chips are visible, especially if the edge is at an acute angle like 11 degrees per side. D2 may be tough, but in my experience the edge stability sucks.

I am looking to find out for myself. I haven't actually used ANY knife in D2 so this will be my first. I can tell you that the knife will be inspected on a regular basis after every use until I am satisfied everything is OK. It won't go camping as the only large knife until it has some yard work (chopping down some small trees in my alley), some random tests I devise as well as some camp type chores like splitting, etc.

Since I never go camping or hunting with just one knife, I always have a general use fixed blade camp knife and a one or two smaller, much sharper folding knifes for fine slicing down to thorn removal. Personally I don't see the need to make a large utility knife sharp enough to shave just because you can. You have to give the blade a chance to do the work it was designed to do.

This knife is a foot long, so I am not thinking I will be using it when sewing on buttons or removing a splinter. All it has to do is maintain a good sharp edge to cut branches, rope, light splitting, some chopping, and to chop through bones and joints as needed.

As an avid barbecuer, one of my tests will be to chop through the large bone found in a pork butt. I buy them whole on sale and chop the large ones in half by cutting around the bone to expose it, then by cutting the bone with my super sharp cleaver. Bone is strange to cut/chop sometimes and can do strange things to an edge. Ask any hunter. That really large bone in a pork butt will be perfect to test with as it is usually as much as 3" across.

We'll see. I am confident, but I am relying on Tom as well. He told me that if I had any problems at all to contact him and he would make it right. He feels this way about all of his products. I guess in the end I could join the pack and get 1095 which would be great itself, but after all the knives I have used and own in 10XX I was actually looking for something just a little more rust resistant that held an edge better.

Like I said, we'll see!

Robert

 

[cotdt]

What could happen here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFpkrk4ikWc

Maybe a deffective unit? Doesn't seem like extreme abusive treatment for a survival knife, specially during the beginning of batoning. The knife was mine and was a present for the guy that was testing it. Of course my friend contacted Ontario and they are sending a new RAT7 in D2!!
I say again, I LOVE RAT7 in D2, but I was surprised with this video. The bend test and that breakage matches with the information that T1mpani gave us.

Wow that's pretty bad, must have been a defect. That was simple batoning, not abusive at all. I don't know, I wouldn't want to buy a survival knife that could snap so easily. I would rather have such a knife in carbon steel with a reputation for having a good heat treat.

 

[t1mpani]

Most factory edges are so obtuse that you won't see gross damage from chopping, even on harder wood. That said, they don't cut very well either.

Like I said, with D2, don't drop beneath 30 degrees included on the edge and you'll get the greatest longevity out of it. Works absolutely fine on slicers with thin blades behind the edge that are only slicing. For my preferences in a big knife, however, L6 or 3V (and about a dozen others) at 20-22 degrees will stand up absolutely fine in chopping (in just about all uses) and at that geometry they actually easily cut branches off versus break them off. I like a heavy knife in that I don't HAVE to wear my arm out trying to drive it through its target, I can just get its momentum going and let it cut; but, you have to have an edge that will penetrate. Many of the bigger knives that come out of TOPS, Ontario and several others have factory edge geometries that resemble cold chisels, and yes they're tough, but they'll kick your ass trying to get anything done with them. Older Busses often suffered from that as well, but the newer ones I've received are being put out with much better cutting geometry--Lord knows, that steel can support it. I mean, I STILL thin 'em out, but it's much less steel removal now.

 

[t1mpani]

Wow that's pretty bad, must have been a defect.

Not necessarily, just D2 acting the way D2 acts. I mean, that knife could be defective but the presence or lack of defects doesn't change the nature of the material. It does not have the ability to survive shock or spring back from deformation when hardened to knife hardness, it just really doesn't. Many, many years ago Jerry Busse was at a knife show talking to one of the other makers there, and was told that he really shouldn't be using D2 in his big combat knives because of how it reacts to rough handling. Being confident in his quality of work/design, Jerry offered up a (if I have this story right--Jerry jump in if you read this) hardened but unfinished knife from his bag. Three hard, sideways smacks against the tabletop and the front of the blade popped off. Guess how long it was until the Busse Combat blades made from A2 started showing up. That's also when his fanatical stress-testing gene was born, I believe.

 

[AMRaider]

Hello,
I'd like to ask for more experienced people: is there serious experience that shows D2 is a more fragile steel than for example 1095??
Particulary in RAT knives, did you suffer problems of fragility with D2?
I'll be grateful if you can help me with your experience,
Thank you!!

I used my RAT-7 in D2 to baton through oak (rather dense wood, in my experience) with no problems. The knife did flex quite a bit when working it's way through the logs, but returned to normal once extracted. I didn't have any issues with chipping or breakage, although I did manage to damage the tip when I put the knife through a log, through the mat the log was resting on, and into the concrete in my backyard . Of course, most knives will need some work after going into concrete .

Overall, the performance of my D2 RAT-7 was excellent.

 

[midnight flyer]

Not necessarily, just D2 acting the way D2 acts. I mean, that knife could be defective but the presence or lack of defects doesn't change the nature of the material. It does not have the ability to survive shock or spring back from deformation when hardened to knife hardness, it just really doesn't.

Obviously your personal experiences have led you to have a poor view of D2. Since I have yet to get my knife in D2 I am hoping you are at least partly wrong with your statements.

I'm tellin' ya, Tom at Chestnut Ridge has a completely, totally, 100% diametrically opposed experience than yours when testing the D2 to his personal satisfaction. He told me he didn't want to sell products he knew he would be getting back, so he was really hard (abusive?) including shock testing on the Ontario D2 he tested.

Others on different forums have had positive personal experiences as well. For me, I hope my experience mirrors the Bluntruth guy as well as Tom's. That would make me quite happy. Now to find out for myself, I guess I'll have to wail on something to chop with it as well just so I can see.

Robert

 

[t1mpani]

Not at all, I very much like the steel--I just have a poor view of D2 for a large, hard use knife. By the same token, I have a poor view of 52100 for a saltwater diving knife, but it's probably my favorite steel. Making D2 into a big, tough fixed blade seems a lot like making a corvette into a dedicated towing vehicle to me----square peg in a round hole. I don't think Tom is lying to you, I'm just offering my own experiences which happen to mirror that of many other people on these boards, many of whom are extremely knowledgeable knife makers and manufacturers. If you want to hear from some of them, go post over in the Makers forums (shoptalk) and see what people who do this professionally have to say. Some of the guys there are award-winning master smiths with waiting lists that go into many months and years, and who wrote a lot of the books that taught a bunch of current knife makers how to make knives. And you know what? They don't agree on everything. I'm going to bet, however, taking my own feelings out of it and basing this on what's been said in the past, that most of the replies are going to tell you there are better big-knife materials. But, then again, man used to kill mammoths with flint-tipped spears, so if D2's the steel you have your heart set on then go for it. It's not glass.

If you don't already, get yourself some diamond sharpeners as it'll laugh maliciously at traditional stones.

 

[midnight flyer]

* SNIP of a well thought out opinion* Some of the guys there are award-winning master smiths with waiting lists that go into many months and years, and who wrote a lot of the books that taught a bunch of current knife makers how to make knives. And you know what? They don't agree on everything. I'm going to bet, however, taking my own feelings out of it and basing this on what's been said in the past, that most of the replies are going to tell you there are better big-knife materials.

I didn't catch that you liked the D2. Now that you are saying it might be a bad fit for the big knife application, I get it. I believe that somewhere along the line there were problems with the steel, I just don't know how much. And the quality control of the heat treatment seems to be key here. And quality control from any mass producing knife maker can be a little iffy in my opinion.

I do appreciate your opinion, and if nothing else I will work it pretty hard before I rely on it as the sole big knife on a campout or hunting trip.

I was going for a larger bladed knife and was just shopping around when I found Tom's site. Honestly, the price on that particular knife was the deciding factor, being too good to pass up. Like I said, I wanted a knife that was more stain resistant and held an edge a bit longer than the 10XX series knives I have, and since this could be the best chance I have to check out D2 for myself, that was it.

I have no doubt there are better steels than even the most popular steels around here for big knives. But the $$$ makes my heart skip a beat sometimes. The knives I own have to work hard, and fit in somewhere with my gun habit, slower business than I have ever seen, and the fact I have to buy a lot of tools as replacements for my construction business.

And hunting season is almost upon us!!

If you don't already, get yourself some diamond sharpeners as it'll laugh maliciously at traditional stones.

Gotcha covered there. That's how I reprofiled my Shallot's S110V. It was still time consuming, but not that tough. Good quality diamonds worked the edge off pretty quickly on that little folder.

Thanks again for your thoughts on the D2.

I'm keeping an eye on that sucker now!

Robert

 

[t1mpani]

For the money, in either material, it's a lot of knife---and the blade shape is about as "all around" as you can get. Their handles are simple designs (not a criticism) that happen to fit my hand well, although some people find them on the big side. Sandpaper can fix that, though. Post back and let us know how it does for you

 

[cotdt]

t1mpani speaks the truth.

 

[Broos]

From what I've heard their not so great.

That is true if you believe somebody with no background & an inherent inability with both connecting the dots and admitting they made a mistake over two knifemaking & testing experts, two ME professors, and a CATRA machine. You ought to do searches here & look at some good testing before parroting somebody elses wrong test results. FFD2 is harder, tougher, MUCH finer grained, and stronger than D2. And it is "they're".

 

[bradefolums]

That is true if you believe somebody with no background & an inherent inability with both connecting the dots and admitting they made a mistake over two knifemaking & testing experts, two ME professors, and a CATRA machine. You ought to do searches here & look at some good testing before parroting somebody elses wrong test results. FFD2 is harder, tougher, MUCH finer grained, and stronger than D2. And it is "they're".

I agree. I love what that guy is doing, but his conclusions should come with a parachute

 

[t1mpani]

I think, like most advancements in alloys, FFD2 is a significant find and real progress. The problem is, many people have no clue what represents progress in the real world. Performance gains of 2% or 3% over what was possible before with a particular product/material/etc. are very hard to achieve, because the processes that you're slaving to outmatch and improve were already slaved over by other knowledgeable people who were trying to make it as best they could. If it's not immediately 50% better, many seem to feel "Well, what's the point?" I'd be willing to argue many of these same people haven't successfully kept up with an exercise program in their lives, either.

I am not one of those who says, "If [insert famous knife maker] says this is great, then that's good enough for me" because I've been hanging around with wide open eyes and ears long enough to know there are some extremely talented and proven people in this industry, just like any other, who don't agree with each other on materials, construction techniques, design and so on; so I don't take any of their opinions as absolute gospel. That said, yes, I lend more weight to an opinion expressed by one--and especially more than one--of these people than I do others.

 

[Jason B.]

That is true if you believe somebody with no background & an inherent inability with both connecting the dots and admitting they made a mistake over two knifemaking & testing experts, two ME professors, and a CATRA machine. You ought to do searches here & look at some good testing before parroting somebody elses wrong test results. FFD2 is harder, tougher, MUCH finer grained, and stronger than D2. And it is "they're".

Never said it was fact just that I heard there was little improvement over standard D2. I also don't hear a lot of praise about FFD2, if you know of a good review please share I would be intrested to see the results of a knowledgable reviewer.

 

[Jerry Busse]

Many, many years ago Jerry Busse was at a knife show talking to one of the other makers there, and was told that he really shouldn't be using D2 in his big combat knives because of how it reacts to rough handling. Being confident in his quality of work/design, Jerry offered up a (if I have this story right--Jerry jump in if you read this) hardened but unfinished knife from his bag. Three hard, sideways smacks against the tabletop and the front of the blade popped off. Guess how long it was until the Busse Combat blades made from A2 started showing up. That's also when his fanatical stress-testing gene was born, I believe.

T1mpani,

Very close to what happened. . . I met Tim Zowada at the 1983 or '84 Blade Show. . . Afterwards, he flew down to my shop and we spent the day testing different steels. . . I used multiple air-quenched tool steels and assorted stainless steels and he used damascus and oil hardening grades. I told him how wicked tough my D-2 was in a 10 1/2 blade and he calmly said, "Then anvil slap it!" He then explained what this meant. . . I did it, and shrapnel flew everywhere, including a nice chunk that got caught in the ceiling.

Having survived this embarassing test, I immediately gave up using D-2 for anything over 5" in blade length.

D-2 is a killer cutter and slicer and can be very difficult to beat in that arena, but as a long bladed chopper that may need to sustain heavy side impacts or heavy vibrations like those imparted when throwing at trees and what not, there are many, many much better choices.

Let's Drink! :thumbup:

Jerry


.

 

[t1mpani]

Well, I'd heard it second-hand, plus I'm old and senile now.

Thanks Jerry

 

[neeman]

...
D-2 is a killer cutter and slicer and can be very difficult to beat in that arena
...

Thanks to Queen for all those slipjoints in D2!

 

[Jerry Busse]

Well, I'd heard it second-hand, plus I'm old and senile now.

Thanks Jerry

You probably heard it from me at BLADE Show when I was drunk!!!! . . . . Well, that was a bit redundant, wasn't it? . . . I mean if you heard it from me at BLADE Show, I was definitely drunk!!!! :thumbup:

In regards to D-2, master knifemaker Mike Thourot has used it exclusively since 1969 on his hunters, skinners, and capers. He was my mentor when I was starting out, and fortunately for me, he became one of my closest friends! Mike's heat treat on D-2 is wicked cool but he does all of his magic behind closed doors. . . We've gotten hammered many a time and I have yet to pry his heat treat protocol out of him!!!. . . No fears though. . . I'm willing to continue getting lit with him until he gives it up!!!! :thumbup:. . . I do know that he uses a beer and scotch blade quench but have yet to figure out exactly what the proper mix is!!!

D-2 rocks!!!

Jerry

 

[sodak]

I think, like most advancements in alloys, FFD2 is a significant find and real progress. The problem is, many people have no clue what represents progress in the real world. Performance gains of 2% or 3% over what was possible before with a particular product/material/etc. are very hard to achieve, because the processes that you're slaving to outmatch and improve were already slaved over by other knowledgeable people who were trying to make it as best they could. If it's not immediately 50% better, many seem to feel "Well, what's the point?" I'd be willing to argue many of these same people haven't successfully kept up with an exercise program in their lives, either.

I am not one of those who says, "If [insert famous knife maker] says this is great, then that's good enough for me" because I've been hanging around with wide open eyes and ears long enough to know there are some extremely talented and proven people in this industry, just like any other, who don't agree with each other on materials, construction techniques, design and so on; so I don't take any of their opinions as absolute gospel. That said, yes, I lend more weight to an opinion expressed by one--and especially more than one--of these people than I do others.

Great post, thanks! You nailed it here!