Question about metals, ZDP-189 VS ??? and explanations of others...

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FliGuyRyan

Joined
Dec 2, 2005
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I recently read in an article about a William Henry with a ZDP-189 blade that cut-5-6x as many 1 inch ropes than the 154 CM metals did, and like 4x times more than S30V blade metals...

Like I said in my post about the Kershaw K.O. Spec Bump, I'm waiting for the S30V to be available on that model (very soon thankfully), but I was wondering for future reference, a fellow poster mentioned ZDP-189 on a "BM 910HS" and I just became very curious.

Any insight to blade metals would be great, I thought I had them figured out, but then comes to mind tool steel as well, and how do you choose? I don't do prying, chopping, and chiseling, but I just want a VERY SHARP edc that'll keep an edge better than my CRKT M16-13Military model (kinda disappointed with it's blade integrity. I have to sharpen quite often, and it's AUS-8).
Oh, and while I mention it, can anyone explain the AUS metals, and 440s as well. ATS-34... how does than compare too?

Thanks in advance!
Cleary
 
Most people compare AUS8 to 440C. I personally like 440C noticeably more. But AUS8 is okay. AUS6 is comparable to 440A. ATS-34 is supposed to be quite good, but I've never used it.

My personal favorites are D2, VG10 and S30V.

My D2 knives hold their edge really well.

The 710HS uses M2 steel. I don't think there are any plans for ZDP in the 710, but Benchmade is crazy, so who knows. If you want a ZDP knife, Spyderco is supposed to be releasing a few here and there...I think the Delica is up next.

I'd recommend not getting caught up in the steel craze...440C does the job just fine. I'll get the higher up steel on a knife if its offered, but once you've exceeded 440C, I don't really care that much.
 
Interesting post Art, and thanks for the link man...

You make a very good point about "once you get past 440C, I don't really care much." That's probably an alright rule to follow.

Thanks again, and if anyone else has any suggestions, please make them... all are appreciated.

Cleary
 
Well I can tell you from personal experience that ZDP-189 is pretty much what they say it is. For me to discontinue the use of a favorite EDC ( every day Carry) it has to be one great performing knife to bump one from my current line up. But the Spyderco Burgundy Calypso Jr with ZDP-189 almost instantly became an EDC that I won't do without. I usually carry 2 to 3 folders a day at work. But there are times I can only carry one knife. When that occurs I carry the Burgundy Calypso.

I am an admitted "steel junkie". I have been known to buy a certain knife because of a certain blade steel it might have. Some of my favorite blade steels are as follows: D-2, VG-10, S30V, ATS-55, and my fav is ZDP-189. Albeit I don't really mind to sharpen a knife. Now I kind of like 440V but that is the HARDEST blade steel to sharpen I have ever encountered. ZDP-189 is not even as hard to sharpen as 440V~~ go figure
 
I would like to second everything that JDSpydo said about the Maroon Calypso Jr. with the ZDP-189 laminated blade. It is wicked sharp and maintains an edge like no steel that I have EVER used. It outshines all others.
 
Here is a great link to our resident BladeForums wizard, Mr. Joe Talmage. He cuts through all the BS. As he states steel if just one of the many variables or components that make a good knife.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368828



Here is some rather "techy" info intended for knife makers but it discusses many different type of steel. ZDP is new and Spyderco layered the first knife that had it so I'm thinking it is somewhat brittle. It can be heat treated to a very high Rockwell hardness. This should make it hold an edge for a long time. The other side of the coin is that it should take a long time to resharpen it.

http://www.ajh-knives.com/metals.html

http://www.gordonengland.co.uk/hardness/rockwell.htm

I thought the Calypso Jr had a "blood red" handle, what this maroon business (sounds too whoosy!)?
 
i dont buy it, 4 times the cutting of s30v huh.. its not a lasersword its still steel, and it only has chromium as alloying element, 3%C, but still i find it hard to believe
 
M Wadel said:
i dont buy it, 4 times the cutting of s30v huh.. its not a lasersword its still steel, and it only has chromium as alloying element, 3%C, but still i find it hard to believe
Click to expand...

Make that 3% Carbon (C), not Chromium (Cr). What they don't tell you are the other alloying agents, of which there are probably some; I would imagine it's kind of like INFI, with the actual composition not being publicly announced, at least in the beginning. Has anyone taken a ZDP-189 blade and done an analysis to enlighten the rest of us of the whole picture?


And don't forget, it is usually run at much higher hardness than most blades (Spyderco runs it at Rc 64), which by itself dramatically improves edgeholding. My father has some Dozier D2 blades, and two ZDP-189, the WH Tom Brown Special and the Calypso Jr. He says the ZDP-189 is significantly better than the Dozier D2, and that is no small feat.
 
The figures about the 4x cutting of this, and 2-3x cutting of that was out of this months current magazines... either Blade, or the other one (not Tactical Knives either, but the other one), and it had an article about a William Henry in it that featured ZDP-189, and they said it was absolutely amazing.

I'm looking forward to the next crop of knives after I purchase the Kershaw Spec Bump featuring S30V steel.

Thanks again for the comments...
Cleary
 
I agree with what JDSpydo said. I have NOT left my house with out my Calypso, Jr. either. I am not capable of leaving the house with out it. I too usually carry 2-3 knives, and my burgundy Caly, is ALWAYS with me!!
 
Hi FliGuyRyan,

In our testing, we did notice significantly superior edge retention (abrasive resistance) with ZDP-189 over most steels, we did not get multiples of 4X type of increases. ZDP was similar to CPM-S90V in abrasive resistant testing. Better than ATS by probably double. Better than S30V by 30 or 40%.

We also learned that edge geometry helped as ZDP will take a very thin edge.

Lamination helps in stamping blades. Solid ZDP must be laser cut. Brittleness at very high Rc's has not been experienced.

We made about 1200 pcs (Caly jr model) in ZDP, mostly for knife junkies to play with. Feedback in the real world testing has also been quite good. We'd like more "time on the steel" before making any definitive statements.

sal
 
First off, to Mr. Glesser, I appreciate your comments and your willingness to be involved in a more personal manner. Being the owner of such a high-caliber orgranization such as Spyderco honors me that you would even reply.

Secondly... for the record, I will try and find the article that I read as soon as possible to state word-for-word the figures that the magazine article stated - as I would like to believe that a nationally-published magazine would be credible in their findings.

I will say this though before I rattle any more feathers. What I originally posted was a comment stating that a knife (a William Henry model), cut through - up to - approximately 5 times the amount of 1 inch ropes (I do not recall the rope material at this time) as other metals that were tested. I did not mean to imply strength or anything other than what that test could prove. And to me, that would mean blade longevity in between sharpening periods.

What I came away with after reading the article, was that the ZDP-189 was far superior in most circumstances as an EDC than most blade metals before it. Now, that is personal opinion - having myself, not witnessed, or testing the blade either - on the results and performance of the ZDP-189 steel.

Thanks again...
PFC Ryan A. Cleary
196th MPAD, Ohio National Guard
U.S. Army

P.S. To Sal Glesser... are there any more collaborations in the works for a "Bump-Spyder" like the Spyker? I really like the design, but the open-assist, and all black color of the latest (and newer model coming out with S30V) iteration of the "Spec Bump" from Kershaw has me looking towards that venue. I'm still trying to decide which model in your line would suit me best. I am going to purchase though a Kiwi Stainless for my father's birthday that is quickly approaching. I'm looking forward to the first Spyderco of the our family. Thank you...
 
Quiet Storm said:
Aus-4 ~ 420HC
Aus-6 ~ 440A
Aus-8 ~ 440B
Aus-10 ~ 440C
Click to expand...
I thought it was more like:

AUS-4 ~ 420J2
AUS-6 ~ 440A < 440B
AUS-8 ~ 440C ~ 420HC

Maybe I am just too used to Buck's great 420HC.
 
I'm pretty sure Quiet Storm was right. I recently read a link about blade metals, and his comparison was correct (as far as the link was concerned).

Thanks for posting...
Cleary
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi FliGuyRyan,

In our testing, we did notice significantly superior edge retention (abrasive resistance) with ZDP-189 over most steels, we did not get multiples of 4X type of increases. ZDP was similar to CPM-S90V in abrasive resistant testing. Better than ATS by probably double. Better than S30V by 30 or 40%.

We also learned that edge geometry helped as ZDP will take a very thin edge.

Lamination helps in stamping blades. Solid ZDP must be laser cut. Brittleness at very high Rc's has not been experienced.

We made about 1200 pcs (Caly jr model) in ZDP, mostly for knife junkies to play with. Feedback in the real world testing has also been quite good. We'd like more "time on the steel" before making any definitive statements.

sal
Click to expand...
Hi, Sal,
thanks for taking the time with us nutcases! Where can I find one of the Caly's in ZDP? I'm a little late to the game, but they sound so good, I'd like to buy two!
muchas gratias
 
FliGuyRyan said:
I'm pretty sure Quiet Storm was right. I recently read a link about blade metals, and his comparison was correct (as far as the link was concerned).

Thanks for posting...
Cleary
Click to expand...
Do you mean the FAQ on this forum?

Joe knows a lot more about steel than me, but he admits that his comparisons are very general and a matter of opinion.

He is also comparing carbon content and not actual performance (though carbon content can tell you a lot).

I am just speaking from my own experiences, which put 420HC along side 440C and AUS-8 and far above 420J and AUS-4.

It is also a matter of the specific steel and heat treat. Buck's 420HC is very good. CRKT's AUS-4 isn't.

I do not know nearly enough about steel to correct Joe or his FAQ, but I am not wrong either. I am just relating my own experience. It's not really a matter of right or wrong.
 
Hair said:
Do you mean the FAQ on this forum?

Joe knows a lot more about steel than me, but he admits that his comparisons are very general and a matter of opinion.

He is also comparing carbon content and not actual performance (though carbon content can tell you a lot).

I am just speaking from my own experiences, which put 420HC along side 440C and AUS-8 and far above 420J and AUS-4.

It is also a matter of the specific steel and heat treat. Buck's 420HC is very good. CRKT's AUS-4 isn't.

I do not know nearly enough about steel to correct Joe or his FAQ, but I am not wrong either. I am just relating my own experience. It's not really a matter of right or wrong.
Click to expand...

Here is a techy link that may be of help. It was intended for knife makers and discusses various tempering temperatures, etc. but has some interesting info about almost any type of steel.

http://www.ajh-knives.com/metals.html

Here is a good post about knife blade thicknesses and grinds.

http://forums.egullet.com/index.php?showtopic=26036

I think many of these steels can be made into decent knives. Some will not take twisting or bending motions as well as others. Some will require more frequent sharpening but this may not be a problem for the casual user which most of us probably are.
 
An excerpt from Knives Illustrated, the article in question. "According to WHK, an independent test source found that the knife sent for a workout made 100 cuts through 1-inch thick manila rope with the edge still intact and slicing well. Comparison found 440-C steel dulling after 15 cuts in the tough rope, while 154CM made 18 and D-2 30 cuts."

earlier in the article: "ZDP claimed four times the cutting facility of D2, six times that of 154CM, and seven times the cutting power of 440C... The ultimate hardness of ZDP-189 is a tested Rockwell of HRC 67. To the best of my knowledge, this is the hardest steel used in cutlery."

These quotes are from the February 2006 issue of Knives Illustrated in the article William Henry: A Knife Most Remarkable, by Sam Fadala.
 
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