Question about multimetallic damascus knifeblades.

A

aarya

Joined
Jun 21, 2006
Messages
514
Hiya folks.
Just thought i`d throw some questions out, to see if anyone could answer them.
I was at the library one day, reading through a bunch of books on knives and knifemaking, when i saw an interesting picture of a knife, made by an unknown knifemaker.
It was made up, by alternating layers of, (in sequence from one side, to the center, and to the other side, when looking straight at the edge:)
Steel, copper, steel, brass, edgeholding steel, brass, steel, copper, steel.
(Actually, it might`ve been just, steel, copper or brass/bronze, then edgeholding steel, copper/brass/bronze, and steel. I can`t remember how many layers there was exactly, but i believe it was nine.)

So, this got me thinking. Would it be possible to make a damascened/pattern welded knifeblade, when alternating steel with other metals, such as copper/brass/bronze, or maybe even titanium?
Or would the other metals become brittle, or possibly even melt?
Copper has a melting point of 1083°C / 1981°F, and i`ve figured out, by reading articles online, that the general welding-temperature used with highcarbon steels, is lower than this temp. (Mild steel i`ve read, has a higher welding temp, than high-carbon steels. If this is valid, i don`t know.)
Both zinc and tin has a very low melting-point, so i don`t know if this would lower the melting point of the bronze/brass significantly, so that a welding temperature would be impossible.
Titanium has a melting point of 1668°C / 3034°F, so theoretically, from just a melting point view, it should be possible.

I don`t know anything about how the maker of the knife in the picture made that specific knife, but the paragraph read like it wasn`t common knowledge.
Anyway, i think that if it was possible to make layered multimetallic knifeblades, (with inserted steel with good edgeholding-characteristics) it would make for some spectacular knives.
I`m definately going to experiment abit with it, come summer, as i don`t feel like standing outside in the -20°C / -4°F Norwegian winter. :p

So, as i`ve now opened this can of possible worms, or whatever.
C'mon folks.
Whaddya think?
 
Couldn't be just colors?
I've studied metallurgy, and read, and listened to advice form experts for 5 years or so now. I'm not that good at doing things due to the little time I have for making knives.
One of the first things you learn, and on which everybody I have ever read or listened to agrees upon, is to KEEP COPPER AWAY FROM YOUR FORGE, if you want to weld.
A simple short piece of copper wire thrown in the forge and the steel won't weld, no matter what.
And that copper steel (used ofr machineability in some applications and partly rust resistant) won't-fuckin'-weld no matter how hot you get it.
So, I don't see how to weld copper, steel, bronze etc in a damascus pattern short of some chemical bond.
:confused:
But I'm not an expert, may very well be I'm still missing some piece of information. Learning is a path, not a destination.
 
If you were real determined you could take layers of steel and electroplate them together with copper as the plating material. You would have to keep it clean and dry or galvanic corrosion would eat it up!

Jim Arbuckle
 
You can look up Ariel Salaverria,there are probably tutorials on this forum.but i had it bookmarked and the search function here can drive people crazy at times.
 
Shakudo: I`ve read the thread Ariel made about making damascus, and for a steel-steel damascus, it`s a great thread. But this is about multimetallic damascus, that is, damascus with steel, coupled with layers of other metals.

Alarion: No, it wasn`t just colors in the picture, as the paragraph to the specific picture said that it was made up of copper/bronze/brass and steel.

I`ve never heard or read that copper makes steel impossible to weld. If that`s true, then thanks for the heads up!

I`m gonna go to the library one of these days, and see if i can`t find that book again, and i`ll snap a few pictures with my digital camera, and upload it here for everyone.
 
Perhaps you ought to read the thread Shakudo linked you to.
 
fitzo: I just did, and it was the same thread as on bladeforum, which i`ve also read. But that thread is about mokume, what i`m asking about, is if it`s possible, to make a knifeblade out of it, instead of just bolsters and fittings.
I know, that for edge-holding, you would need to have a core of good edgeholding steel, but i fear that a mokume-mix would be too soft, and not wear-resistant, as it doesn`t contain enough steel.
 
aarya, it is composed of layers of mild carbon steel, copper, and 1070, which is quite capable of making a knife blade when heat treated at temps below the melting point of copper. Put a thicker piece of 1070 in the middle and it's a knife. Change the ratios, perhaps, but the procedure is equivalent, is it not?

Added: I don't think you'll ever really be able to make a true laminate of diffusion welded materials, but more of a copper-brazed steel stack. The welding temps are too close to the melting point of copper. The copper would blow right out the billet when it was pressed.
 
fitzo: I suppose the procedure is equivalent.
But is it possible to forge the billet, cut, bend and reweld it, to get more layers of steel and copper/bronze?
Or would one need to plan ahead of time, to get all the layers you`d need, without cutting and rewelding it?
Would it also be possible to do with titanium?
Would it be possible with other steel-types too? L6? O1? 15n20?
More questions than answers from me atleast..
 
Here is an example from a maker who does Ti on damascus san mai. You might google his name to find different pieces:

http://www.bladegallery.com/shopexd.asp?id=4472&websess=49928448199388

You could take the stack Ariel made, cut it in two and restack I would think. However, you might need another can.

I have to say my observation would be that any knife made with non-metallic components would have to be san mai at the final step because you couldn't tolerate the possibilty of getting copper at the edge due to of deformation during patterning.

I would also suspect that the differences in plasticities between the metals at a given temp are going to make it a nightmare to forge. Copper moves a lot more per hammer blow than steel, for instance.
 
Thanks fitzo! That knife is just... *drools*
I`ll have to experiment a bit with these techniques it seems... Most definately. ^_^
 
aarya said:
Shakudo: I`ve read the thread Ariel made about making damascus, and for a steel-steel damascus, it`s a great thread. But this is about multimetallic damascus, that is, damascus with steel, coupled with layers of other metals.

Alarion: No, it wasn`t just colors in the picture, as the paragraph to the specific picture said that it was made up of copper/bronze/brass and steel.

I`ve never heard or read that copper makes steel impossible to weld. If that`s true, then thanks for the heads up!

I`m gonna go to the library one of these days, and see if i can`t find that book again, and i`ll snap a few pictures with my digital camera, and upload it here for everyone.
Click to expand...
I spent three days in a bladesmiths shop learning last fall. We were making damascus, pounding out 52100 balls, etc. and forging knives. He decided to make some raindrop mokume on the morning of the third day. It turned out beautifully. But, I tried to weld another 1084/15N20 billet up right after he was done making the mokume. The non-ferrous metals ended up between all 15 layers and nothing would stick. I should point out that in the previous two days each of us had successfully welded dozens of times, without a hitch in any of our damascus billets!

So, from experience, it will screw up your forge! I learned a lot from this experience at his forge. When I begin making my own mokume, it will be done in a forge completely dedicated to mokume and will never go into my steel making forge!!!!
 
I agree with you, Scott. Many will say the copper and zinc oxides from brass aren't a problem if the forges are run VERY hot after exposure, but I've heard enough to consider it a chancy practice at best.
 
Check out Ariel S posts , he does some incredible stuff .He has no problem mixing !!!
 
mete said:
Check out Ariel S posts , he does some incredible stuff .He has no problem mixing !!!
Click to expand...
You're ignoring the fact that he's Ariel!! He does stuff that the average human being type knifemaker can't even imagine, let alone accomplish!!!!! My hat is off to him, but i don't want the headaches. Maybe some day down the road, but right now, I have bigger fish to fry, such as:
Learning how to control my hammer.
Learning how to control my forge temperature.
Learning how to grind better.
Learning how to .................... (you get the picture) I'm working on learning the basics, and don't want it slowed down by nonferrous metal mucking my damascus up.
 
When you`ve had copper in a forge, and then try to weld..
Are you guys talking about gas-forges? Would this also be true in charcoal forges?
And what is it that makes the... "Copper-effect" last so long?
Does it linger in the air, or what is it?
I only use charcoal forges, as i have no feasible way to make a gasforge.
(And as i`m still just in the experimentation phase of things, i`m set up in my parents garage, and i doubt they`d want that much dedicated knifemaking equipment there, for me to only use when i visit them once in a while.)
 
All the problems I've heard of occur with gas forges. The hypothesis is that it vaporizes, sticks in the lining, and slowly vaporizes back off. As I said, some have said that a high-heat cycle will "clear" the forge. I'm not interested in taking the chance. I'm fortunate enough to have furnaces to make mokume if I choose.

I don't think a coal forge would suffer the same problems.

Good luck! I hope you will share your experiments. :)
 
Holy crap!!! Thankfully I read this. I was going to try my hand at copper and nickle silver mokume this weekend. Now I know to stay away from my knife forge!!!

-Mike Sheffield
 
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