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Question about multimetallic damascus knifeblades.
- Thread starter aarya
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Messages
- 1,375
Copper in the forge will screw up ANY forge, gas or coal, it doesn't matter.
DO NOT put copper in a forge you may want to use to forge weld. If you do, don't say you hadn't been warned...
Mokume is one thing, and welds together metals that are compatible.
Damascus is another thing, and again welds together metals that are compatible.
Copper will screw up any chance to weld steel, and copper and steel aren't compatible, so I don't see ANY way of forge welding copper (or any derivate like brass and bronze) with steel.
Glueing? Yes.
Riveting? Why not?
Peening? Sure.
Welding? I really don't think it's possible.
If somebody has done it, please, let me know how in the world you can do it...
I've seen works where copper and steel were put together, but they weren't forge welded, but mechanically coupled.
It's been done since ancient times with copper, silver and gold on all sorts of weapons for decoration purpose.
You can chemically deposit a mix of mercury and copper or silver or gold on steel and heat up everything so that mercury evaporates leaving a chemically bonded layer of the other metal. It was done extensively on japanese weapons furniture...
But, again, that's not forge-welding at all.
Explosive bonding is another way, but again it's not forge welding.
May be the knife was made with explosive bonding?
I doubt since the resistance to heat stress would make it impossible to heat treat the blade (around 400 °C tolerance)... and from what they say the steel should be annealed before bonding...
DO NOT put copper in a forge you may want to use to forge weld. If you do, don't say you hadn't been warned...
Mokume is one thing, and welds together metals that are compatible.
Damascus is another thing, and again welds together metals that are compatible.
Copper will screw up any chance to weld steel, and copper and steel aren't compatible, so I don't see ANY way of forge welding copper (or any derivate like brass and bronze) with steel.
Glueing? Yes.
Riveting? Why not?
Peening? Sure.
Welding? I really don't think it's possible.
If somebody has done it, please, let me know how in the world you can do it...
I've seen works where copper and steel were put together, but they weren't forge welded, but mechanically coupled.
It's been done since ancient times with copper, silver and gold on all sorts of weapons for decoration purpose.
You can chemically deposit a mix of mercury and copper or silver or gold on steel and heat up everything so that mercury evaporates leaving a chemically bonded layer of the other metal. It was done extensively on japanese weapons furniture...
But, again, that's not forge-welding at all.
Explosive bonding is another way, but again it's not forge welding.
May be the knife was made with explosive bonding?
I doubt since the resistance to heat stress would make it impossible to heat treat the blade (around 400 °C tolerance)... and from what they say the steel should be annealed before bonding...
Oh no! The crazy guy is back! And he brought pictures! 
BIG pictures.
These are scans from the image in the book.
The first one shows two knives, detail of the edge.
The second one shows two other knives, with their casings. (The three faces on the top, are the end-pieces of three of the knives. I think.)
Here`s what the book have to say about these knives.
"Oslo Museum of Decorative Arts and Design have three of them, the Norwegian Museum of Forestry owns one, i know of two or three in private ownership, and i own one.
I`m talking about a special group of knives.
All are different, but they show so many common denominators that they have probably been made by the same blacksmith and knifemaker.
There is no sheath, but a casing with tophood.
One of the knives have a strap for carrying on the belt, but this has certainly been added at a later date.
The casings have been cut out of paperthin boxwood and clad with black glove-leather, they have bands, tops and bushings made from silver.
The handles are formed out of beautiful silver birch with top and bands of silver.
The end pieces are decoratively formed in silver.
The blades have a profiled back in the same material and are laminated in several layers.
The core is sharp edgesteel, then brass, copper, iron and brass.
It varies slightly in each individual blade.
It`s unusual with such complicated lamination, the material must be braze welded together before it was welded as a "cape" around the edgesteel."
And here is an image, with norwegian and english words, for the typology of Norwegian knives.
So, guys.. Whaddya think?
I think it`s rather neat actually, but then... And i fully admit this, i`m crazy about knives.
BIG pictures.
These are scans from the image in the book.
The first one shows two knives, detail of the edge.
The second one shows two other knives, with their casings. (The three faces on the top, are the end-pieces of three of the knives. I think.)
Here`s what the book have to say about these knives.
"Oslo Museum of Decorative Arts and Design have three of them, the Norwegian Museum of Forestry owns one, i know of two or three in private ownership, and i own one.
I`m talking about a special group of knives.
All are different, but they show so many common denominators that they have probably been made by the same blacksmith and knifemaker.
There is no sheath, but a casing with tophood.
One of the knives have a strap for carrying on the belt, but this has certainly been added at a later date.
The casings have been cut out of paperthin boxwood and clad with black glove-leather, they have bands, tops and bushings made from silver.
The handles are formed out of beautiful silver birch with top and bands of silver.
The end pieces are decoratively formed in silver.
The blades have a profiled back in the same material and are laminated in several layers.
The core is sharp edgesteel, then brass, copper, iron and brass.
It varies slightly in each individual blade.
It`s unusual with such complicated lamination, the material must be braze welded together before it was welded as a "cape" around the edgesteel."
And here is an image, with norwegian and english words, for the typology of Norwegian knives.
So, guys.. Whaddya think?
I think it`s rather neat actually, but then... And i fully admit this, i`m crazy about knives.
the posted description tells you the basic process. the laminates were hard soldered or brazed depending on your viewpoint. there is no mention of forge welding and no specs on the steel used.the photos are of the same 2 knives and the knife on the left shows delamination towards the end of the blade.they may have been made purley for decoration and not as a tool.
Ah, good spot Shakudo! I didn`t realize the two pics were of the same knives, but when i look closer, they are.
Also, the writer of the book these knives were featured in, isn`t the maker, so the maker is infact unknown, and the knives are pretty old. Most likely made around 1780-1820.
As for them being decoration, and not tools, could be very true. But they do follow the Norwegian line of having soft sides to a hard carbonsteel core.
I guess this would be more commonly known as san-mai, soft steel on the outside, hard carbonsteel edge. Except that these knives don`t feature just mild-steel on the outside, but a lamination of iron, copper and brass instead of the mild-steel.
Also, the writer of the book these knives were featured in, isn`t the maker, so the maker is infact unknown, and the knives are pretty old. Most likely made around 1780-1820.
As for them being decoration, and not tools, could be very true. But they do follow the Norwegian line of having soft sides to a hard carbonsteel core.
I guess this would be more commonly known as san-mai, soft steel on the outside, hard carbonsteel edge. Except that these knives don`t feature just mild-steel on the outside, but a lamination of iron, copper and brass instead of the mild-steel.