Question about stockmans

R

Randy3000

Joined
Jun 3, 2017
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I have attempted 3 stockmans, and haven't been happy with any of them. I started looking at all different kinds of stockmans. Buck makes a stockman with 3 single springs. It's a very wide knife, and is essentially three knives peened together. Case makes a stockman with one single spring and one double spring with a liner between them that is gound down very low on the inside of the knife, and the middle blade is actually bent slightly at the tang so it fills in the space over that middle ground down liner.

The first i attempted had 3/32" blades with a single and a double spring with a liner between, and the two overlapping blades were flat ground to 3/64" before doing the bevels. This creates a very steep plunge and I don't like the look of it. I tried tapering that plunge and it still doesn't look good. I also tried using 1/16" steel for the overlapping blades and 3/32" steel for the double spring, and soldered some 1/32" spacers to the liners. It looked weird and I didn't like it, and it is hard to actually do. I also tried 1/16" steel ground to 1/32" and those blades were paper thin and very flexible, I didn't like that, 3/64" seems about the thinnest I'd ever want to go.

I like the Case design best, so i want to try that now. The problem is, how the heck do you get that sharp bend at the tang? I just see myself bending a gentle curve throughout the whole blade and it not working. There's probably a way to use my vise like a press, I'd just need to make a form or something. Anyone ever done this? Intentionally bend a blade into an angle?
 
Do you mean "crooking" the blade to allow clearance when folding close? It is something you should do before heat treatment, since you have to apply localized red heat where you want the sharp bend.

Someone does the same thing after HT, but you should apply heat nevertheless, and compromise the hardness. If you already have hardened your blade, getting a sharp bend at 380-400 °F it is not advisable (snap) and over that temp. range you are spoiling the hardness i consider adquate for such smaller and keener secondary blades.
 
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I was thinking something like this. The blades would be 1/16" ground to 3/64", and then i kink one over like in the picture. They both slip along a 1/16" double spring. Then there would be either a 1/16" or 3/32" master blade to the left side in the drawing below. I think if i heat the blade enough and use four blocks of different thicknesses i can press it in a vice. The blocks would need to be 3/64" different in thicknesses, two at each thickness, to get the kink. The 3/64" thickness if i flat gring the blade first. If I don't flat grind first I'd need 1/32" thickness difference which may be easier to achieve but at the cost of being harder to press. Will this work? Will i have to worry about warping in heat treat? Normally, doing stock removal, i never have issues with warping. I don't know if this kind of stress will cause problems and if so how i can mitigate those problems.

Y1KY1Ny.jpg
 
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I believe the book talked about above is multiblade folding knives by Terry Davis, and Eugene Shadley. Once we get to these
type of knives (stockmans, congress, moose, scout knives, and split back whittlers) it becomes quickly apparent why they demand
the prices they do. I've made a number of stockmans with no fancy bending jig. Also on three spring stockmans the ones I've
made were of 1/16" stock,- so no thicker. Have never had any problem with 1/16" stock as long as it wasn't abuse. If possible get
a junker and take it apart, this can be priceless for what you are working toward.
Ken.
 
So i made this thing. It's the only hands free thing i could think of. I like it because i can change out the little insert pieces to get different crinks.
pdx1KAf.jpg

i tried it on a scrapped blade, i used 1/32" insert pieces.
pncoed5.jpg
 
A swedge will create the illusion of more space and help guide a blade that might not be perfectly aligned.

I have yet to actually make a stockman or other overlapping blade knife like that, but I own a handful of USA Schrade 108OTs which is the smallest stockman they make and I can't help but marvel at how well aligned they all are on such a small and inexpensive knife.

I had a couple of pocket knife repair books that I recently lost in a move but I seem to rememember something about the edge of an anvil and very careful whack with a hammer. I'm pretty sure he was using one of those special little pocket knife anvils with a step in it. I think the idea was to get a single, crisp bend rather than a curve.

The one you did looks good to me, though I'm just starting out myself and there might be details that I'm missing.
 
I let it cool and then checked the spacing with a 1/32" liner, and it isn't perfect. It's close, but not perfect, especially at the bend. The tang and the blade were also not parallel. I ground some of the metal off in the corners and tried again and it helped. The shearing displaces metal in a way that holds it off, so i think you have to remove that metal at the bends. To get it perfect requires some combination of grinding, pressing, and maybe a little hammering.

This weekend I'm spending all my time making jigs and trying new techniques. I've hit a plateau in my knifemaking and i need to elevate and learn something new and improve my jigs too.
 
boy&hisdogs said:
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I had a couple of pocket knife repair books that I recently lost in a move but I seem to rememember something about the edge of an anvil and very careful whack with a hammer. I'm pretty sure he was using one of those special little pocket knife anvils with a step in it. I think the idea was to get a single, crisp bend rather than a curve.
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Click to expand...

I can make the insert pieces have less of a gap and it'll create a sharper bend. I will try that once i get what i have now usable. I can tell getting a very short step will take some effort and time, but it's worth it.

I really like the look of swedges too, and will spend some time thinking about how to make them enhance the ergonomics too.
 
Want to second the recommendation of the book: "How To Make Multi-Blade Folding Knives" by Eugene Shadley and Terry Davis

It's one of, if not the best book, on making slipjoints out there, and worth every penny it'll cost to get one, out of print (usually about $100). There are a lot of things I do differently, but it's important to understand your options, if you're going to make an informed decision about how to go about a task.

The way you've got that blade bent, isn't going to save you space, and is going to be weaker than if you left the tang the same thickness as the combined total thickness of the blade and it's off-set tang with the bend, and simply tapered or ground a step on one side, as is traditionally done.

I've been watching your threads, and I'd respectfully recommend you try doing things the way they've been done for centuries now (the old masters didn't just do shit on a whim, they had good reasons for most of the ways they built things), before you try re-inventing the wheel. It's natural for all of us to want to add some contribution to this art as a whole, but bear in mind, it's likely the absolute oldest trade (making matter separators; i.e. knives) of our species, so until you've mastered the art, don't expect to, even then, be content with adding 0.000001% to the overall progress of knifemaking in general. If that's not something you can live with, I'd recommend you find an interest that involves newer technology, which is much easier on a whole to innovate in.

No offense intended, I hope you'll take this as constructive criticism. You're clearly driven to make pocket knives, and are making quick progress, just be patient, and remember, the "fundamentals" are fundamental for a reason. You can break rules, but you have to know them first. ;)
 
When i started out, i had zero knowledge. No youtube videos, nothing. I have learned all kinds of things in my lifetime, and how i learn best is to try on my own, then ask for help, and then seek actual training. Most people do it backwards, college is a prime example, and while i did very well in college it was only because i read ahead and was properly prepped for the training part (lectures). So maybe i am at that phase where i need a good text. I certainly don't have a mentor in my area, not one interested in what I'm doing anyway.

By the way, you're about the 30th person to tell me something like this. For my graduate thesis i solved 11 equations and provided an alternative model of the stock market while my advisor was away on sabatical for a year. When he returned he threw half the equations away and said they had been done and told me to leave out my new stock model because there was cleaner approachs, and then i graduated literally with no help from him. He berated me for hours about how i had wasted time and should of researched more, i could of done something useful. I've applied for at least a dozen patents that were turned down because they were already done. The thing is, i do research, i just don't find what I'm looking for, and then i get to work and most of the time reinvent wheels.
 
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Randy3000 said:
When i started out, i had zero knowledge. No youtube videos, nothing. I have learned all kinds of things in my lifetime, and how i learn best is to try on my own, then ask for help, and then seek actual training. Most people do it backwards, college is a prime example, and while i did very well in college it was only because i read ahead and was properly prepped for the training part (lectures). So maybe i am at that phase where i need a good text. I certainly don't have a mentor in my area, not one interested in what I'm doing anyway.

By the way, you're about the 30th person to tell me something like this. For my graduate thesis i solved 11 equations and provided an alternative model of the stock market while my advisor was away on sabatical for a year. When he returned he threw half the equations away and said they had been done and told me to leave out my new stock model because there was cleaner approachs, and then i graduated literally with no help from him. He berated me for hours about how i had wasted time and should of researched more, i could of done something useful. I've applied for at least a dozen patents that were turned down because they were already done. The thing is, i do research, i just don't find what I'm looking for, and then i get to work and most of the time reinvent wheels.
Click to expand...

Randy, I definitely hope I didn't come off like some elitist academic, if you met me, you'd know I'm about the furthest thing away from that, and have huge disdain for institutional rigidity. It's one of my biggest pet peeves to hear someone say "Do it this way." and when asked why, they respond "because that's the way you're supposed to". If they can't give me an explanation as to why it's the best, I'll assume they're simply repeating shit they were told, and took on faith, as opposed to actually ever figuring anything out.


I would never discourage experimentation, or attempts to re-invent the wheel. I do a *LOT* of things, making slipjoints, that's contrary to the accepted wisdom, and have some pretty strong opinions about why I do those things the way I do. Often there are things that are highly dogmatic and done without an understanding of why, in contemporary knifemaking, however, the old masters were pragmatic, not typically bound by convention, and usually had a really good reason for doing the things they did.

The ricasso of a fixed blade, is a perfect example. Many collectors, and even many makers, do not understand the function of it, and think it's just a design or embellishment choice, however, that belief couldn't be further from the truth. When I had only been making knives for a couple of years casually, I had the same mistaken understanding of it, until it was explained to me, by James Rodebaugh (ABS Mastersmith), who is now a very good friend, one of the most thoughtful makers I know, and doesn't do anything without asking himself why. It gave me a new perspective, and started opening my eyes to understanding what I stated above about the tradition of this craft we all love so much.



Definitely try and reinvent the wheel, just make some regular ones first, get it down, so you fully understand it, then, re-invent it, is all I'm trying to encourage you to do. It natural to want to run, but you'll have a better time of it, if you are adept at walking first. I've been obsessed with slipjoints for maybe 5 years now, I think I'm a pretty smart guy, but they're deceptively complex mechanisms, I believe, the most nuanced of all folding mechanisms even, and I still learn something new on each one I make. Just when I think I truly understand all the caveats of the mechanical interactions, I get a surprise that makes me realize how little I really do know.

I've helped a number of other guys get into making these knives, and I'll be happy to help you also if I can. Feel free to PM, email, or call me anytime. Not sure where you're located, but if you're anywhere close by (or you're willing to fly), you're welcome to stop in for a visit also.
 
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