question: Blade material - 12c27, 1095-

S

ss caustic

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Good day all , I'll though I'm new to the blade forum world , I've been researching extensively for the past several weeks on the topic of forging blade.
forging is indeed new to me, but metal work..., I've been doing for 20yrs or so. and am looking for some guidance.

I have a vision for the look of a knife I'd like to attempt to make, and I'm in the process of narrowing down the materials I'd like to use. providing they will play well together, and this is where i require guidance at the moment.

the look of knife in the end will be stainless core of 12c27 laminated with a very fine line pattern welded "Damascus" thinking of using more 12c27 and 1095(and or 10xx lower) for this. again this is to obtain the look i want.

I'm just looking for clarification on if these steels will work together through out a differential ( hamon ) heat treat.

it seems by my research so far that they will but perhaps I missed something.

any and all welcome to reply , much appreciated!
 
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Please correct me if I'm wrong but 12c27 would be really hard to forge, it would likely crack and crumble as you tried to work it. As for the damascus I can't see 12c27/1095 working at all, they are miles apart. The hamon wouldn't work either because 12c27 is air hardening, you need shallow hardening steel for a nice hamon.
 
I've found a Spanish guy on line who was forging them together but was using 12c27 - 1095 - 12c27 san-mai configuration and seemed to work well.

12c27 is an oil quench

but you are entirely correct that a hamon will not work with high chromium steel (stainless steel) , I knew this but momentarily forgot through info overload on my quest /research for blade materials that will produce the edge and look I want.


that being said :

at the end of the day this W2 chef's knife has the basic color I'd love to obtain but I'd like there to be thin wisps of the silvery edge color running through the darker part of the blade in the form of a very fine "twisted or linear Damascus" lines.

ht tp://www.chefknivestogoforum.com/rader-257mm-w2-slicer-nfs-anymore-t6298.html

my understanding is 15n20 should work, are there any other options for silver wisps lines ?

thoughts
 
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15n20, L6, O1 all give bright lines.

I don't know man, you're talking pattern welded steel, forging stainless, differential hardening all in one knife as a first attempt.

With no experience I can't see things working out well.
 
12c27 is similar to AEB-L, IIRC. I can't imagine anyone making a san-mai from it with any carbon in the layers, or using it as a san mai core. It seems that would end badly for any buy a large damascus shop with years of experience ( if it worked at all).

For "silver wisps" is a damascus san mai, try 15N20 or pure nickel sheets and 1084 or 1095. You want a core that you can HT, so use a high carbon steel like 1095 or W2. A piece of .040" nickel placed between the damascus and the core when laminating the san mai to the core will make a very interesting "faux hamon" that will be a bright strip meandering along the junction of the core/skin.

Have you ever made any damasus ?....because you are starting way up the ladder from the first rung.

I would suggest you start with 15N20 and 1084/1095. Stack seven layers of sanded clean 6"X1.5"X.250" steel up , tack weld the ends, weld on a 24" handle,....and forge weld them up solid. Grind off all the exposed sides and see how the weld took. If it is solid, start drawing out and folding for five to ten folds. If that grinds off to look good, twist as tight as you can without tearing the bar. Re-square lightly, grind off the high spots of the twist, forge out into a 24" flat bar, and surface grind it clean. Etch in some FC/water ( 1 part FC to 3 or 4 parts water) and see how it looks. If that looked good, grind it clean, cut in half, layer on a center bar of 1095, and weld up as a foot of san mai. That would be a very ambitious starter project.

BTW, five folds of seven layers is 224 layers, seven folds is roughly 900 layers, and ten folds is roughly 7000. Where you stop is a matter of how "fine" you want the pattern. For twisting, 225 to 450 layers ( five or six folds) is plenty.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
12c27 is similar to AEB-L, IIRC. I can't imagine anyone making a san-mai from it with any carbon in the layers, or using it as a san mai core. It seems that would end badly for any buy a large damascus shop with years of experience ( if it worked at all).

For "silver wisps" is a damascus san mai, try 15N20 or pure nickel sheets and 1084 or 1095. You want a core that you can HT, so use a high carbon steel like 1095 or W2. A piece of .040" nickel placed between the damascus and the core when laminating the san mai to the core will make a very interesting "faux hamon" that will be a bright strip meandering along the junction of the core/skin.

Have you ever made any damasus ?....because you are starting way up the ladder from the first rung.

I would suggest you start with 15N20 and 1084/1095. Stack seven layers of sanded clean 6"X1.5"X.250" steel up , tack weld the ends, weld on a 24" handle,....and forge weld them up solid. Grind off all the exposed sides and see how the weld took. If it is solid, start drawing out and folding for five to ten folds. If that grinds off to look good, twist as tight as you can without tearing the bar. Re-square lightly, grind off the high spots of the twist, forge out into a 24" flat bar, and surface grind it clean. Etch in some FC/water ( 1 part FC to 3 or 4 parts water) and see how it looks. If that looked good, grind it clean, cut in half, layer on a center bar of 1095, and weld up as a foot of san mai. That would be a very ambitious starter project.

BTW, five folds of seven layers is 224 layers, seven folds is roughly 900 layers, and ten folds is roughly 7000. Where you stop is a matter of how "fine" you want the pattern. For twisting, 225 to 450 layers ( five or six folds) is plenty.
Click to expand...

thanks for the reply guys, Stacey, I see you are suggesting 1084 / 1095 as the main steel, is there a specific reason for this , as apposed to W2?

thanks again!
 
ridges said:
15n20, L6, O1 all give bright lines.

I don't know man, you're talking pattern welded steel, forging stainless, differential hardening all in one knife as a first attempt.

With no experience I can't see things working out well.
Click to expand...

one learns best from mistakes, and I always aim high, but of course there will be testing of procedure along the way.
 
".....Stacey(sic), I see you are suggesting 1084 / 1095 as the main steel, is there a specific reason for this , as apposed to W2? ...." ( BTW, It is Stacy)

My main point was that you have no experience yet, and don't appear to know what works with what. The mixes I suggested are simple - and simple is good in the beginning. Once you get forge welding down pat, and can make clean damascus billets, the core choice will be less critical.

As you can see in this graph :
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=W2, 1095, O-1, 1084&hrn=1&gm=0


W2 has more carbon and a bunch of this and that to make a fine grain and high carbide blade. The extra stuff in it is good for a cutting edge, but requires more care and skill.
1095 probably is a bit better for making san-mai damascus than W2 as it is a bit simpler and doesn't have as much carbide issues to deal with.
1084 is the eutectoid and has no alloy or carbide issues to deal with.
O-1 is slightly hyper-eutectoid with chrome and other extras for fine grain and toughness.

All will bond well to 15N20.

With .75-.80% carbon in 15N20, 1084 and O-1 are the closest HT match for a damascus mix. The 1084 will show a darker stripe in comparison to the 15N20.





So, for a blade with san mai, a mix of 1084 and 15N20 will make one of the brightest contrast mixes and be simpler to weld up. ( simpler...not simple)
For the core, hyper-eutectoid steels are fine. Both W2 and 1095 will make a great edge.
 
Thanks for the replies,

ooops on the typo, Stacy. the Stacy E.... in red sure looked like "Stacey" to me for some reason.

none the less thanks again for the guidance.

I'm sure I'll have more questions in the future.
 
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