Question for EMS guys.

SkunkWerX said:
Wow, we need an 'EMS forum' we have so many trained folks around here!

I will now only refer to it only as the HeimLICK MANURE. :D

Geeesh, you think folks would want their family's name associated with something that saves lives, not with a Legal entanglement.

HeimLICK MANURE. got it :thumbup: ;)
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The worst part of this Heimlick Manure thing is that it isn't even the doc who propagated this method. Just to keep things straight, he didn't invent this method, he just pushed hard to get it adopted. It isn't him that is pushing for royalties for the use of the name Heimlich Maneuver. It’s his no talent scum sucking son or other relative. I believe the doc himself is dead. At least that is what I was told in class.

And a seperate Wilderness EMS/EMS forum might not be a bad idea. ;)

KR
 
Rescue Mike said:
That's GREAT.. Way to go.. Very proud of you..

FACT: You are quoting ALS and BLS protocols..

FACT: ALS and BLS Protocols are different in Every state and in some cases, every county!

FACT: Those do not apply for the lay provider..

FACT: If you tell a lay provider to do something OTHER than what they were taught, YOU are liable.

Guys.. I realize that quite a few of us are Firefighters/EMT B/IV/P Military Corpman, whatever.. But lets remember that the majority of the people here on this forum ARE NOT.. Let's keep the explanations to a lay provider level, unless we preface it with an explanation that the response is an advanced skill for others with the appropriate training..

*putting soapbox away*

That said, I love the great explanations here, and love the fact that someone can ask a question, and get an answer from so many knowlegable people!
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way to exert your authority

i am not quoting als and bls protocols, since blind finger sweeps have been taught in CPR classes, which are for everyone.

i, obviously, don't give a shit about liability, I said it. and if someone is working on me and i do not have an airway, guess what, i want one.

what i do give a shit about is life. i don't give a shit about maintaining my identity at the cost of life.

so "Guys, I am not a lay provider, i consider myself so damn cool, i even use it in my screenname, because it is how i define myself. So when others who know about the guy behind the curtain in Oz and they shatter my false image of my special magic...well, i feel hurt."

and i will put it all in big bold font to make me look even more authoritative and official.

what we need to do is teach people how to take care of themselves and each other, especially with what the future will bring.

certifications mean nothing to me any longer, i have to mention them because we are still taught to value bullshit over common sense.
 
In my opinion I enjoy having all of my fingers. There is always that chance of causing the pt to clench their teeth. Blind finger sweeps are dangerous if you ask me. But I do agree that if you can see the object and you can grab it with your fingers without triggering a gag response and their is no other way, do it.
 
That about the Heimlich maneuver being trademarked and the object of a lawsuit got me curious, so I did a little searching. The only reference I found was a "news" story from the Onion (a news humor/satire web site), so I have a feeling that this is the result of someone taking a satire piece seriously.
 
Blind finger sweeps are not being encouraged or taught at any Laymen CPR by the american Heart association or at the bls provider level.

I am only an Evil Monkey Trainer and a Cpr instructor but here is my .o2$

I have heard in Emt classes that there have been instances where a hard breath or Puff from a Bag Valve Mask (ambu bag) has caused an obstruction to go down into one branch of the bronchi clearing the other for breath. This was not taught as a skill but as an "It could happen" type explination.

I have also heard where insertion of an ET Tube has caused an obstruction to be pushed into a lung.


However there is no protocol that I know of that encourages attempting to Push a foreign body obstruction down into someones airway.

I have always been fortunate enough to be able to get obstructions out through more conventional means.


PS: Snare I do Use EMS in my name because it is a part of who I am and a part that i take pride in, Some of my other screen names refer to My hair color and birthsign, and one I use is my SCA name. SO was that "OZ behind the curtain" crap aimed just at mike for being to authoritative or at all of us who use references to our Vocations/ evocations in our screen Names.


"Online arguments are like the Special Olympics"

" Even if you win your still retarded"
 
This is an interesting thread with a lot of good info. I recognize or can figure out many of the acronyms used, but am lost when it comes to others. Could someone (snare, mike, or one of the other learned folks posting here) please post an acronym translation? I would appreciate it, and I bet others would also. Thanks
 
In Mike's defense a little ;)

Mainstream medical practice is governed by laws as they should be to protect the patient from potential harm.

The problem I and others on the fringe of golden hr medicine run into is: In the event there is no EMT 15 mins out and or no ALS (Advanced Life Support) on the way, what then?

The fact is stuff happens to good people who are going to die unless YOU! do something. Their fate is sealed and you are the last face they will see. At this point it gets grey. Do you go beyond your training or protocol or do you watch them slip into the next world before your eyes?

In the SAR world we have the luxury of Dr contact via radio who can talk us through advanced proceedures beyond normal practice. Because of this it makes me think what else legally would be accepted as last ditch efforts and not patient assault?

Legally I could go to jail by giving someone "My" EPI who is having an allergic reaction but would 100% die without it. "YOU" must make that choice in the moment and deal with the consequences later.

This is where training comes in. Understanding vitals and when a patient is about to tank for good puts you into a better legal position in the choices you make or dont make.

I have a hard time watching people slip from this world without every and all of my knowledge being utilized to prevent this, legal and within protocol or not.

Treatments in court will be judged on a case by case basis by experts. By and large if the patient is dead or near death a reasonable court will see the dilema and wave the protocol limitations. That said there is no guarantee.

The problem is protocols are designed with assumptions that ALS or advanced help is near by when we all know this is not always the case.

Medical laws need to be revised to include last stand medicine as far as I am concerned.

In the grey zone 6hrs from help. Tread carefully.

Skam
 
This has been an informative post. Having just gone through EMT refresher here in Minn. we were taught no blind finger sweeps even on adults. As stated earlier, regs vary from state to state. What I can do here an EMT in another state may not be able to do. To all the lay people out there it is inherent on you to know how to do CPR and first aid. Take the classes in your area. Find out from your local fire department what/when/where, and if they aren't involved, check with the American Heart Assoc. in your area. You just may save a life someday. I think a wilderness EMS forum would be a good idea. I'm sure I could learn from others here and it would be fun to hear about the experiences and knowledge gained from them.
 
I can say from experiance that I believe everyone should be CPR certified. With AEDs in so many locations now, its very possible that you might need to use one someday. Maybe a manditory AHA CPR for the bls provider course in all high schools would be an idea. I cant count the times that early CPR / defibliration would have possibly saved my pts life. Me, I always error in side of my pt. I was quoting procedure in my earlier posts. Bottom line AIRWAY,AIRWAY,AIRWAY. Gotta get it. I will, and have done whatever is needed to accomplish this feat. BUT... I have seen a few very good people get in a heaap of crap, and lose careers for erroring in side of their pt. Its a judgement call, bottom line. Just always be aware of the possible outcome of your actions. With good samaritan laws that protect us while giving aid, I say do absoulutely everything possible to get an airway, it all goes downhill from there, trust me, sometimes very quickly.

It makes me happy that so many EMS guys share their advise and are willing to educate the public so readily. After all the public are the VERY first on scene and knowing that people have a willingness to learn makes all of our jobs easier.
 
Guys, thanks for the responses. Looks like we're divided, to say the least. I guess I'll hold my questions about penetrating chest wounds and the best antibiotics for long term wilderness stuff. I'm afraid they might start an EMS/EMT/Paramedic/SAR/Military medicine civil war.
 
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