Question for glue gurus .

K

Kevin the grey

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I want a glue that would be good for rice paper . I want to roll rice paper around bamboo shafts . It would have to be a thin glue that would permeate the paper or at least cover its surface in a very thin layer . I could use latex gloves but I still need a glue that won,t make the paper impossible to manipulate . It has to roll smoothly around the shafts with no lumps or bumps .Modern or hide glue it doesn,t matter to me . If it comes from a natural source , all the better .It can even be a paint or laquer that has good adhesive qualities . I thought I,d give you a good one for a monday morning !
 
Would Elmer's work? It seems to do all right with paper and porous materials, but it's not waterproof...don't know if that affects your plans or not.
 
You should look into aerasol adhesives. Home depot carries an extensive line. We use an elmers product here, and also some of the more expensive ones. They are pretty cool as they can be used permanently, or temporarily. They spray on nice and thin too.
 
aproy1101 said:
You should look into aerasol adhesives. Home depot carries an extensive line. We use an elmers product here, and also some of the more expensive ones. They are pretty cool as they can be used permanently, or temporarily. They spray on nice and thin too.
Click to expand...

Super 77 is great, but is quite permanent. Haven't used temporary ones.

I wonder about going exactly the other direction, like simmering/soaking rice in water to extract some starch. I've never done that (well, I've gotten rice to stick like heck to the bottom of the pan...).

Also, egg whites make a kind of old-time glue. Think of letting eggs dry onto a plate. I pretty sure they used to be used in laboratories to hold thin glass slide covers onto glass microscope slides. I'd separate the eggs and mix up the whites with a little bit of water. The idea is to make it a little thinner to work with easily. I don't know *how* much, though.
 
It will proabably end up taking a few experiments even after the advice I get here . a simple thin paste might even work as has been suggested as well as being cost effective . It doesn,t have to be waterproof . Waterproof would be a plus . The spray adhesive sounds like a good idea as long as I could manipulate the paper with it on .

I get the impression I can get Aylmers white glue in spray form ?

I may go both the modern route as well as a simpler homestyle glue . Then I can decide which works better . I also likethe homemade route as it is for a traditional application . Anything you guys can add will be appreciated .
 
The Chinese have this glue called "cheung wu" which you maybe able to purchase in chinadown. I old days it was used to glue/close envalops. And this is the glue hat they used to make paper lanterns by glueing paper to bamboo sticks. I remember a long time ago that it was used (diluted with hot water) to starch shirts ! :confused: So this thing is water based and can be diluted to the consistency of your liking.

Another is the gelantine rice. I read that Japanese scabbard makers used gelantine rice to glue 2 halves of scabbard together. Strong enough to hold but still can be popped open for cleaning if needed. Method.... 1 day old gelantine rice worked with spatula and daps of water (little by little) to the consistency you required. Rice glue.

I do suspect that the 2 glues I'd mentioned are the same thing. Hope this can help.
 
Astrodada that sounds interesting and your gelantine rice reminds me of something else I,d heard . Knoxs gelatine . This foodstuff has been used to glue bow laminations together . While I doubt the source for the gelatine is the same perhaps that could be used as well . I will hit Chinatown to research that glue you mentioned . I am also trying to find the rice paper on a roll . I have it in sheets and not too much of that . I imagine if I got a big enough sheet I could cut it down to a long six to eight inch roll . It would be hard to get a clean enough edge . There is a communication issue as well . The Chinese people in chinatown don,t understand my French which is getting to be the only language we have in common . They learned their French in school and I learned it From the Ladys I went out with . Their French is more grammatically correct . My recess time was a lot more fun ! L:O:L
 
What do fletchers use? The arrow-feather guys?

Or fly-rod makers for the thead and the split bamboo?

I'd imagine both would need a strong, thin, waterproof glue.


justathought.
 
Kismet Fletchers use such a range of glues it is getting to be ridiculous . There are glues for aluminum , carbon and wood which are not reccomended for each other . Some use a type of crazy glue while others use one that resembles plastic model glue . Traditionals might even use pine pitch with the feathers being tied on to boot ! Most of the glues are too thick and costly as in most sports there is a premium cost for materials .
 
Kevin, maybe you can ask for japanese painting paper in rolls....but I think those maybe rice straw paper. Not too strong but depends on your purpose.
 
Silly question . Can you get this Japanese paper in China town ? It may be that the glue would add to its strength . It can,t be that easy to tear if it is to be painted on ?
 
our local art/craft chain stores have long rolls of rice paper for sumi calligraphy

for language difficulty
maybe print good product pix from internet to show
or just order from web-store

traditional rice glue isn't that strong
& sure not waterproof

a water based yellow glue may be your best [common/cheap] bet
[more waterproof than white pvc glue]

practice your movements with water wetted paper first
then thin down the glue water-thin, with water
& spray or otherwise soak the paper before application of paper to shaft
[ ! maybe apply after it's around the shaft
it will just soak thru]

most paper swells when wet
after it drys
a wet roll that was tight,
will then be loose

<:)> THEY call me 'Dean' <>
dean-sp-sm.jpg

<:eek:> Caution: Not all ideas vented from this brain are entirely based on empirical data. JMO-M2C-fWiW-iIRC-YMMV-fYI-TiA-YW-GL
<:D> Noobee <> Tips <> Baha'i Prayers Links --A--T--H--D
 
Ddean thats all good practical advice . I had figured in the swelling of the paper at all . Can I thin the ordinairy Elmers white glue ? If there is at a a loosening of the paper layers it wouldn,t be a good thing as I need it tightly wrapped .. Those caligraphy rolls might be the very thing . A five to seven inch roll would fit the bill . I don,t mind shopping on the internet . I do prefer to look at what I buy . A stroll through china town is always pleasant and I have another purchase in mind . A pot of oolong tea and an afternoons stroll can onld do me good . Thanks again .
 
West system marine epoxy might be just the ticket. It is used to lay fiberglass cloth on wood for reinforcement and waterproofing. It is very thin for epoxy and tough as hell. You can get it in small quantities or you might even be able to get just a little bit if you know a woodworker or boatbuilder in your area.
 
Yes ddean said it right ! Paper for calligraphy shall be good. It absorbs water and dry just as strong. But the chinese varieties are made into sheets, maybe you can find some large enough for your needs. Japanese ones are made into rolls, but not as strong, people typically use it for practicing purpose only. Famous japanese product in rolls is called "yued kung dean" in chinese, meaning 'moon palace'. Hope this helps Kevin. :)
 
Archers have used Fletch-Tite glue for more than the fifty odd years I've been behind the bow. It is toluene based, adheres equally well to wood, aluminum, fiberglass & feathers; but I suspect it would penetrate rice paper. You might check 3-M spray adhesive in a very light application, waiting a minute prior to laying on the rice paper........
 
"Can I thin the ordinairy Elmers white glue ?"

yep
just add water
?maybe? distilled if your local water is high mineral content

test diff. dilutions for ease & adhesion
likely won't take much glue
i'd prob start off w/ a drop of glue & 10 drops water
mix, drop paper square on top & let dry
(?hairdryer/?low oven if in a hurry)


our local rice paper rolls i mentioned are about ~18-24" wide.


? did anyone mention boiled linseed (or tung) oil?
Good initial adhesion for rolling
& soaks thru
hardens if thin
don't know re heat to speed it up
could add 'japan drier' to speed drying

drying oil might be just the thing [traditional] for your project
[of which....tell more]

Mmmmm.......parchment paper?
from art supply, not kitchen supply
parchment paper for cooking usually silicon impregnated
[wax paper replacement]

siliconized parchment paper good under sticky stuff for containment

<:)> THEY call me 'Dean' <>
dean-sp-sm.jpg

<:eek:> Caution: Not all ideas vented from this brain are entirely based on empirical data. JMO-M2C-fWiW-iIRC-YMMV-fYI-TiA-YW-GL
<:D> Noobee <> Tips <> Baha'i Prayers Links --A--T--H--D
 
drying oil might be just the thing [traditional] for your project
[of which....tell more]

Dean ,As I may be applying a laquer or other waterproof coat over all of this I don,t think the oil even if dried would work . The slightly thinned aylmers glue or knoxs gelatine might be what I first try as I happen to have those on hand .
As to "why" here goes . You can get Japanese and Korean bamboo arrows that are heat and pressure(lots of pressure)straightened . They can even go so far as to wrap them in rice paper and laquer them which gives a glossy smooth finish as well as an incredibly straight arrow .
I do not intend to even approximate this . It is a painstaking and highly labour intensive task which requires years of experience and specialised equipent requiring lots of space . What some archers do is reduce node size (those bumps between each segment )with a clothes iron . Along with this they are straightened over a heat source . This gives a reasonably straight arrow with reasonably rounded and more less eccentric nodes . They then make hardwood nocks (string slot) and a hard wood insert for the point . I am going to try and take this one step further by rolling rice paper with an adhesive applied between the nodes . This is to accomplish a variety of tasks . !) weight match the arrows. Arrows made from natural materials tend to vary in weight which leads to different points of impact . 2) Stiffen arrow . For arrows to fly well from a bow they have to flex(paradox)at a certain rate . If the arrow is too weak it could break and if too stiff can result in inaccuracy . 3) Esthetics . This is a bit more of a stretch here as I am making too many compromises to try and approximate what the pros do .
At this stage I have just made a few boo arrows by just heat straightening them and glue/tieing on feathers and custom fitting points . Some have flown well and some flew like drunken snakes . Choosing the bamboo is of primary importance and I reject 9 of 10 . It is mostly a labour of love and to test various fletching configurations . I design and cut or burn my own shapes into the feathers I apply to my arrows . I designed and made my own feather burner . Most of my fletchings take after a Dragons wing . They are of a bi-delta design . I asked an artist friend of mine to draw rhem for me as remembrance and a way to establish the fletching as my own . She drew them from many perspectives including one I had not thought of (arrow coming directly at you ) This allowed me to see the fletching in a way I had not thought of which gave me inspiration and encouragement .
B:T:W: Well made bamboo arrows with damascus broadheads can command upwards of 1400 dollars Canadian funds for a dozen . Another reason I want to make my own .
 
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