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Question for Jeff --- Sebenza?
- Thread starter Razor
- Start date
I have never used a Sebenza so I can't comment.
Seems like there is a shortage of the 2000 right now....oh well, it's well worth the wait.
Jeff
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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
Seems like there is a shortage of the 2000 right now....oh well, it's well worth the wait.
Jeff
------------------
Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 5,403
Well,
As one who has owned both, and currently owns only the Military....
Military-
-Lighter
-Pointier
-Ergonomic
-Thinner edge
-Faster Opening
-More Opening Options
-Less of an investment
-Less of an investment
-Less of an investment
Sebenza
-More solid lockup.
-Expensive
I sold my first Military to buy my Sebenza, then I sold my Sebenza. Wanted my Military back in a bad way. Full Circle.
------------------
Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com
Review of the World Survival Institute, Chris Janowsky survival knife, the Ranger.
Talonite Resource Page, nearly exhaustive!!
Fire Page, metal match sources and index of information.
"Many are blinded by name and reputation, few see the truth" Lao Tzu
As one who has owned both, and currently owns only the Military....
Military-
-Lighter
-Pointier
-Ergonomic
-Thinner edge
-Faster Opening
-More Opening Options
-Less of an investment
-Less of an investment
-Less of an investment
Sebenza
-More solid lockup.
-Expensive
I sold my first Military to buy my Sebenza, then I sold my Sebenza. Wanted my Military back in a bad way. Full Circle.
------------------
Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com
Review of the World Survival Institute, Chris Janowsky survival knife, the Ranger.
Talonite Resource Page, nearly exhaustive!!
Fire Page, metal match sources and index of information.
"Many are blinded by name and reputation, few see the truth" Lao Tzu
SALTY
Gold Member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2000
- Messages
- 5,801
Jeff, You have talked up the SERE 2K so much that I went and ordered one based upon your reviews alone, never even touched one or seen one. I figure if I don't like it, it should be fairly easy to sell at a fair price.
It seems odd that you have never tested a Sebenza. If it's none of my business, just say so - no hard feelings. But do you only eveluate equipment that is given to you by a manufacture or supplier? Did you ever seek out a Sebenza or two from Chris Reeve?
I have a Sebenza and find them to be a very well designed and a very rugged instrument that I have never used to anywhere near its potential. You, on the other hand, would likely benefit from its design and construction features. In short ... what gives?
It seems odd that you have never tested a Sebenza. If it's none of my business, just say so - no hard feelings. But do you only eveluate equipment that is given to you by a manufacture or supplier? Did you ever seek out a Sebenza or two from Chris Reeve?
I have a Sebenza and find them to be a very well designed and a very rugged instrument that I have never used to anywhere near its potential. You, on the other hand, would likely benefit from its design and construction features. In short ... what gives?
Not trying to be a smartass here but there are only a few thousand makers out there....and I'm slowly getting to them one at a time.
I have done something on Chris Reeve...just not the Sebenza.
I buy a lot of knives and in all truthfulness return most of the sample knives I am sent after the review is finished. I have too many knives as it is and collecting is not a major hobby of mine. My goal is seeking out what works for specific tasks, then passing that info on to those interested....nothing more.
Many times the magazines have already run an article on a particular piece so I will buy one just to do my own review if it looks interesting or might fit into the scope of our interests.
Sure, I write for several magazines and do reviews, but our personal reviews revolve around all sorts of team gear - not just knives. Most of these reviews are never made public since some of them are for companies and others are for specific mission oriented gear. In all actuality, we do more non-public reviews than what you see in the magazines and on our site and most of these reviews have nothing to do with knives. You'd be surprised at some of the stuff we do review....things that would make you say 'well I never thought of that for this application.'
We plan on doing a lot more reviews for our site in coming months. We just have so many irons in the fire that we can't get to them all. Stay tuned.
Jeff
------------------
Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
I buy a lot of knives and in all truthfulness return most of the sample knives I am sent after the review is finished. I have too many knives as it is and collecting is not a major hobby of mine. My goal is seeking out what works for specific tasks, then passing that info on to those interested....nothing more.
Many times the magazines have already run an article on a particular piece so I will buy one just to do my own review if it looks interesting or might fit into the scope of our interests.
Sure, I write for several magazines and do reviews, but our personal reviews revolve around all sorts of team gear - not just knives. Most of these reviews are never made public since some of them are for companies and others are for specific mission oriented gear. In all actuality, we do more non-public reviews than what you see in the magazines and on our site and most of these reviews have nothing to do with knives. You'd be surprised at some of the stuff we do review....things that would make you say 'well I never thought of that for this application.'
We plan on doing a lot more reviews for our site in coming months. We just have so many irons in the fire that we can't get to them all. Stay tuned.
Jeff
------------------
Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
Having owned both I agree entirely.
Chad
------------------
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
"Those who hold the thin blue line keep order, and insure that anarchy and chaos will not prevail." Chad (1992)
"He who lives by the sword dies by the sword. He who dies by the sword did not train hard enough" -Chad (1999)
chad234@email.com
Nimrod, no problem...didn't take it that way.
------------------
Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
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Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
Hoodoo,
I was waiting for that comment
In all seriousness, knives are tools to me - nothing more. WIth the knives I have now, I could staff any team operating in any area with a more-than-adequate knife for the job. Most of the sample knives I receive from companies that don't want them back are given away to indgis or military guys in remote locations......never to be seen again.
It doesn't matter what comes out in the future, just about every design has been designed and any positive effects of a new design are going to be so small that actual use under hard conditions is not going to be affected that much from what is already available. Even with folder locks...I know that's going to stir up a hornet's nest. Not saying that there are not excellent new lock designs, it's just that most things seem to be over-engineered for what really happens in the bush. When it gets to the point that we are having to design blades as do-all's then maybe we should just focus our design efforts on lightweight, quiet running, solar powered chainsaws or electric knives instead.
Now, that's difficult to say being a writer since magazines still have to evaluate and review just about anything new that comes along, but it is fact. The magazines serve a purpose for most of us who are interested in the small differences or new designs....Hell, even we design new stuff all the time but our designs will never be the ultimate answer, and not meant to be, and I've yet to see a Kryptonite blade that radically changed how survival is being accomplished.
In my opinion, as far as military and survival situations go, the best gear designs are 'complimentary' designs. Knives are very seldom used as the only source of survival or the only thing used to do a specific operation, so designs that compliment and partner with other mission gear will always be needed and the most valuable in my opinion. There's a few things like this floating around but, again, you start adding too much gadegtry and it defeats the purpose.
I think the next great 'working knife' design will revolve around this - simplicty that works, just like I think the next great production large blade will be some company willing to spend the extra money and roll distal tapers into their blades.
The problem I see with a some of the knife industry is trying to place to much emphasis on 'new and improved' when it comes to steels, cutting edges, handle designs, etc. Besides doing complimentary designs, I think a lot of things should go back to basics and what's working for the folks that are in the field and bush everyday - strictly speaking of wilderness type knives here since I know next to nothing about fighting blades...and don't want to.
Now, if this isn't a post that stirs up debate and emotion...then it can't be done
Jeff
------------------
Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
I was waiting for that comment
In all seriousness, knives are tools to me - nothing more. WIth the knives I have now, I could staff any team operating in any area with a more-than-adequate knife for the job. Most of the sample knives I receive from companies that don't want them back are given away to indgis or military guys in remote locations......never to be seen again.
It doesn't matter what comes out in the future, just about every design has been designed and any positive effects of a new design are going to be so small that actual use under hard conditions is not going to be affected that much from what is already available. Even with folder locks...I know that's going to stir up a hornet's nest. Not saying that there are not excellent new lock designs, it's just that most things seem to be over-engineered for what really happens in the bush. When it gets to the point that we are having to design blades as do-all's then maybe we should just focus our design efforts on lightweight, quiet running, solar powered chainsaws or electric knives instead.
Now, that's difficult to say being a writer since magazines still have to evaluate and review just about anything new that comes along, but it is fact. The magazines serve a purpose for most of us who are interested in the small differences or new designs....Hell, even we design new stuff all the time but our designs will never be the ultimate answer, and not meant to be, and I've yet to see a Kryptonite blade that radically changed how survival is being accomplished.
In my opinion, as far as military and survival situations go, the best gear designs are 'complimentary' designs. Knives are very seldom used as the only source of survival or the only thing used to do a specific operation, so designs that compliment and partner with other mission gear will always be needed and the most valuable in my opinion. There's a few things like this floating around but, again, you start adding too much gadegtry and it defeats the purpose.
I think the next great 'working knife' design will revolve around this - simplicty that works, just like I think the next great production large blade will be some company willing to spend the extra money and roll distal tapers into their blades.
The problem I see with a some of the knife industry is trying to place to much emphasis on 'new and improved' when it comes to steels, cutting edges, handle designs, etc. Besides doing complimentary designs, I think a lot of things should go back to basics and what's working for the folks that are in the field and bush everyday - strictly speaking of wilderness type knives here since I know next to nothing about fighting blades...and don't want to.
Now, if this isn't a post that stirs up debate and emotion...then it can't be done
Jeff
------------------
Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
SALTY
Gold Member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2000
- Messages
- 5,801
Quote: "I think the next great 'working knife' design will revolve around this - simplicty that works, ..."
Jeff. I think you not only described the Sebenza, but coined a phrase for its marketing.
With that said, I absolutely agree with you regarding a knife as a tool, but respectfully disagree about the "nothing more" part.
My garage and various tool boxes are filled with "mere" tools. The Mont Blonc fountain pen on my desk, however, though only a tool, is an object about which I am somewhat passonate. Not just because it was a gift from my wife, but because it brings me happiness in using it. I care for it, maintain it and to the extent possible with an inanimate object, have a relationship with it.
Well, even more so with some of my knives. I have user/beaters that are just that. Then, there is the Puma White Hunter, Marbles Campcraft and an old 440C Buck 110 that my dad gave me which has had the abused/misused (by me) blade replaced by Buck. There is the Project 1 that I keep oiled and keen. I don't just use knives, I take enjoyment in their use as well as their care; I suspect I am not alone in that here at BF.
So, when I get my SERE 2K which group should I put it in?
Different strokes for different folks I guess. Most of the gear I have here is well worn and little maintained. Thats not to say I abuse stuff just because I'm lazy, instead I want to see how things are going to last in the field when there may not be good ways, or enough time, for proper maintenance.
The key to good mission gear under hard field conditions is gear designed for low maintenance. Same for people also...always pick the folks that require the lowest maintenance in relation to their skills
Some of the companies we review for are not interested in 'marketability' and good looks, rather they want to know will it work and continue to work in relation to it's design features.
Jeff
------------------
Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
The key to good mission gear under hard field conditions is gear designed for low maintenance. Same for people also...always pick the folks that require the lowest maintenance in relation to their skills
Some of the companies we review for are not interested in 'marketability' and good looks, rather they want to know will it work and continue to work in relation to it's design features.
Jeff
------------------
Randall's Adventure & Training
jeff@jungletraining.com
I think the Sebenza fits in with the scenario you describe Jeff. It's a very rugged design. One of the best locks in the business. IMO far more trustworthy than the best liner lock. And it's adjustable for wear, something you don't find in other folders. A lot of guys buy knives and comment about how tough the liner lock looks but in many instances, it isn't the liner that causes the problem, it's the stop pin. As the blade wears into that, the liner lock loosens up. The stop pin on a Sebenza is cam-shaped and can be rotated (it's actually a sleeve) to compensate for wear.
The blade is an excellent pocket razor. Good slicing blade and excellent tip for delicate work. It complements the heavy diehard flat ground 3/16" or 1/4" survival fixed blade well. I think there is a thread running right now on how low maintenance these knives are. Kind of a "wash and wear" product. And no glued on scales to crack or loosen up.
I wouldn't choose it as a stand-alone survival folder (given that I have a choice). I need a more robust, flat ground blade for that, like my Kershaw 1050 or Schrade LB7 [which btw, is not flat ground]. But it goes well with a Project I or Battle Mistress or Magnum Camp, etc.
Overall, the Sebenza would be my first choice as a complementary survival folder. In fact, I haven't purchased another folder since the day I bought mine. Nothing I've handled lately compares. And mine's a small sebenza. The full sized one is at the top of my list (but I've been sidetracked by Busse knives lately
).
I keep waiting for Benchmade to produce somehthing interesting with their Axis lock but other than the 705 and 710, nothing trips my trigger.
Sebenzaholic,
------------------
Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 10-02-2000).]
The blade is an excellent pocket razor. Good slicing blade and excellent tip for delicate work. It complements the heavy diehard flat ground 3/16" or 1/4" survival fixed blade well. I think there is a thread running right now on how low maintenance these knives are. Kind of a "wash and wear" product. And no glued on scales to crack or loosen up.
I wouldn't choose it as a stand-alone survival folder (given that I have a choice). I need a more robust, flat ground blade for that, like my Kershaw 1050 or Schrade LB7 [which btw, is not flat ground]. But it goes well with a Project I or Battle Mistress or Magnum Camp, etc.
Overall, the Sebenza would be my first choice as a complementary survival folder. In fact, I haven't purchased another folder since the day I bought mine. Nothing I've handled lately compares. And mine's a small sebenza. The full sized one is at the top of my list (but I've been sidetracked by Busse knives lately
I keep waiting for Benchmade to produce somehthing interesting with their Axis lock but other than the 705 and 710, nothing trips my trigger.
Sebenzaholic,
------------------
Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 10-02-2000).]
I totally agree with Hoodoo. I've had about ten of the more popular Benchmades, Spyderco's, CRKT's etc., and there is no comparison. For you who got rid of your Sebenzas and returned to your Spyderco Militaries, I bet you didn't do a lot of cutting with them. I have owned Militaries and the blade shape and handle feel just didn't work in my hand compared to my Seb. My feeling is the Sebenza is a tool where the Military is a weapon.
Bruce Woodbury
Bruce Woodbury
After i bought my first Reeve fixed blade knife (a Shadow IV) I fell in love with them. I quickly added a large Sebenza, right handed, even though I am a lefty, but I could not find a left handed one at the time. I will never carry anything but the Sebenza's for my folder again. They scream out "Quality"!
Jon
Quality Knives For Sale
- Joined
- Jun 29, 1999
- Messages
- 9,807
Jeff, nice to hear the voice of experience. Simpler IS better. I baby my knives at home, but in the field it gets jammed back into the sheath until I may have time to do the maintenance, or not. Have you tested the Fallkniven F1 yet? I am highly impressed with this basic yet sophisticated design, its construction and the steel. Normark's Concealex sheath is the ideal mate, IMHO.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Marion, your Military had a thinner edge that your Sebenza? Is this with both NIB? Based on the couple of Reeves blades I have handled, the edge is significantly thinner that the NIB Spyderco one. According to recent threads on the Reeve forum, it is about half.
-Cliff
-Cliff
- Joined
- Oct 6, 1998
- Messages
- 957
Hi,
I've been reading this "thread" for a while and allthough through a USPS mishap I probably lost a LNIB Spyderco Military I will vent some thoughts on the Military versus Sebenza.
I own a Large Sebenza and luckily have bought the knife in NIB condition 1.5 years ago for considerably less then the $325 is seems to cost right now.
I like the Sebenza for it's very very good finish but what could/should one expect from a knife costing that much.
Lockup may be one of the strongest for a folder but a Benchmade Pinnacle has the same lock for 3 times less.
I find myself pampering the Sebenza and not using it to e.g. scrape the bark of a stick as we do while scouting to make "bread sticks" for the kids to rol bread dow around to bake above the fire, or any other cutting tasks during scouting.
I once did this with my Sebenza (factory edge) and had to an edge that had rolled badly it sort of looked chipped but luckily wasn't. It took quiet some work on my Lansky diamond hone set to bring it back to razor sharpeness.
I now use my Sebenza in the kitchen for "chopping up" vegatables and cutting up meat and admire it's design in the evening sitting on the sofa.
I once dropped it in my pocket with some keys and walked 5 seconds before remembering that I had keys in the pocket and you can see the slight scuff marks on the Titanium grips.
This does not interfere with it's quality and function it just gives me chudders as the Sebenza cost me a whole lot of money.
But I do find myself using, even sometimes abusing my Benchmade AFCK or Buck Crosslock Solitaire without any problem whatsoever and happily scrape bark even when full of sand cut and whittle wood use it to make firesticks and sometimes drop them on sand or even concrete without causing a small hart attack
as would doing the same with my Sebenza do.
Yes I have to sharpen the knives reguarly but that's no problem just fun
.
And for the $200-$275 I saved compared to the Sebenza I could buy myself quiet a good selection of "Survival" necessities that could save my life someday or make staying in the woods a lot more comfortable.
Anyone ever grabbed a sebenza that has been riding in a belt holster or clipped to a pack when it was freezing 30 Degrees Centigrade outside ? the metal grip should make for a secure grip on the knife as your hand will immediately freeze solid to the metal (once had that experience in during a visit in a giant freezer warehouse when I touched some metal inside
)
Also has anyone seen reports, read stories about someone having his Military or Crosslock or AFCK etc. fail under survival conditions and subsequently injure him/her or even worse? I would very much like to read hear about such things happening.
I personally think that it's the persons mental state when falling into a sudden Survival situation that will determine the outcome and not if he's loaded with hundreths of $$ worth of knives or just a $50 cutter any decent cuttingtool will be acceptable.
I still hope that USPS will deliver my Military but that won't change my above thoughts.
Contrary to what Marion said above I really can't immagine that the flat ground Military has a thinner edge configuration then my hollow grinded Sebenza as that almost is as thin as an old strait razor that I have.
Best Scouting wishes from Holland,
Bagheera
[This message has been edited by Bagheera (edited 10-04-2000).]
I've been reading this "thread" for a while and allthough through a USPS mishap I probably lost a LNIB Spyderco Military I will vent some thoughts on the Military versus Sebenza.
I own a Large Sebenza and luckily have bought the knife in NIB condition 1.5 years ago for considerably less then the $325 is seems to cost right now.
I like the Sebenza for it's very very good finish but what could/should one expect from a knife costing that much.
Lockup may be one of the strongest for a folder but a Benchmade Pinnacle has the same lock for 3 times less.
I find myself pampering the Sebenza and not using it to e.g. scrape the bark of a stick as we do while scouting to make "bread sticks" for the kids to rol bread dow around to bake above the fire, or any other cutting tasks during scouting.
I once did this with my Sebenza (factory edge) and had to an edge that had rolled badly it sort of looked chipped but luckily wasn't. It took quiet some work on my Lansky diamond hone set to bring it back to razor sharpeness.
I now use my Sebenza in the kitchen for "chopping up" vegatables and cutting up meat and admire it's design in the evening sitting on the sofa.
I once dropped it in my pocket with some keys and walked 5 seconds before remembering that I had keys in the pocket and you can see the slight scuff marks on the Titanium grips.
This does not interfere with it's quality and function it just gives me chudders as the Sebenza cost me a whole lot of money.
But I do find myself using, even sometimes abusing my Benchmade AFCK or Buck Crosslock Solitaire without any problem whatsoever and happily scrape bark even when full of sand cut and whittle wood use it to make firesticks and sometimes drop them on sand or even concrete without causing a small hart attack
Yes I have to sharpen the knives reguarly but that's no problem just fun
And for the $200-$275 I saved compared to the Sebenza I could buy myself quiet a good selection of "Survival" necessities that could save my life someday or make staying in the woods a lot more comfortable.
Anyone ever grabbed a sebenza that has been riding in a belt holster or clipped to a pack when it was freezing 30 Degrees Centigrade outside ? the metal grip should make for a secure grip on the knife as your hand will immediately freeze solid to the metal (once had that experience in during a visit in a giant freezer warehouse when I touched some metal inside
Also has anyone seen reports, read stories about someone having his Military or Crosslock or AFCK etc. fail under survival conditions and subsequently injure him/her or even worse? I would very much like to read hear about such things happening.
I personally think that it's the persons mental state when falling into a sudden Survival situation that will determine the outcome and not if he's loaded with hundreths of $$ worth of knives or just a $50 cutter any decent cuttingtool will be acceptable.
I still hope that USPS will deliver my Military but that won't change my above thoughts.
Contrary to what Marion said above I really can't immagine that the flat ground Military has a thinner edge configuration then my hollow grinded Sebenza as that almost is as thin as an old strait razor that I have.
Best Scouting wishes from Holland,
Bagheera
[This message has been edited by Bagheera (edited 10-04-2000).]
Bagheera,
You make excellent points. But note I was careful not to say that the Sebenza would make a good "stand-alone" survival blade, but a complementary blade to a fixed-blade survival knife. Due to the thin blade, the Sebenza will not stand up well to the kind of rough work you are describing. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Thicker blades don't slice as well but hold up better.
The evidence you want for knife failure has been posted many times. There are quite a few threads on liner-lock failure. I don't know about the Military specifically. But there are many high-end liner lock models that have worn out quickly. It often depends on how you use it. For instance, just like you baby your sebenza, I baby my Spyderco Wegners (I don't flick them open like I used to) because there are too many reports of the liner lock walking over to the other side. Very tough knives, these Wegners, but some are prone to liner-lock problems.
BTW, the Benchmade Pinnacle lacks the compensation for wear in the lockup that is found in the Sebenza. Although BM tried to clone the Sebenza, they didn't go far enough. I also might add that, due to strange heat treating, some BM knifes in ATS34 seem to be prone to chipping. My miniAFCK has chipped several times under surprisingly little stress.
------------------
Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 10-04-2000).]
You make excellent points. But note I was careful not to say that the Sebenza would make a good "stand-alone" survival blade, but a complementary blade to a fixed-blade survival knife. Due to the thin blade, the Sebenza will not stand up well to the kind of rough work you are describing. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Thicker blades don't slice as well but hold up better.
The evidence you want for knife failure has been posted many times. There are quite a few threads on liner-lock failure. I don't know about the Military specifically. But there are many high-end liner lock models that have worn out quickly. It often depends on how you use it. For instance, just like you baby your sebenza, I baby my Spyderco Wegners (I don't flick them open like I used to) because there are too many reports of the liner lock walking over to the other side. Very tough knives, these Wegners, but some are prone to liner-lock problems.
BTW, the Benchmade Pinnacle lacks the compensation for wear in the lockup that is found in the Sebenza. Although BM tried to clone the Sebenza, they didn't go far enough. I also might add that, due to strange heat treating, some BM knifes in ATS34 seem to be prone to chipping. My miniAFCK has chipped several times under surprisingly little stress.
------------------
Hoodoo
I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 10-04-2000).]
- Joined
- Oct 8, 1998
- Messages
- 5,403
Cliff/Bagheera,
My comment about the edges of the Military vs Sebenza is based on the Military I own and my one month old memory of the Sebenza. So, I may be off.
But, I also feel pretty confident about my memory of the Sebnza edge. I wonder if there is some variance in edges as delivered. Production variance over time maybe?
The twice figure flies far afield of my memory, and I have compared up close the Military and SERE 2K, and I cannot see the SERE 2K and the Sebenza both being ground to the same thinness.
Maybe one could query both companies about variance from incept of model to today to explain variance and current standards including measurements at shoulder.
MDP
[This message has been edited by Marion David Poff (edited 10-05-2000).]
My comment about the edges of the Military vs Sebenza is based on the Military I own and my one month old memory of the Sebenza. So, I may be off.
But, I also feel pretty confident about my memory of the Sebnza edge. I wonder if there is some variance in edges as delivered. Production variance over time maybe?
The twice figure flies far afield of my memory, and I have compared up close the Military and SERE 2K, and I cannot see the SERE 2K and the Sebenza both being ground to the same thinness.
Maybe one could query both companies about variance from incept of model to today to explain variance and current standards including measurements at shoulder.
MDP
[This message has been edited by Marion David Poff (edited 10-05-2000).]