Question for knife makers.

M

magneto

Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
502
I am considering getting into knife making and my wife seems to think that you must have liability insurance just in case someone sues you for cutting themselves or something else stupid. Knives are after all, deadly instruments. She used to work for Hartford and she zipped off a lot more stuff she says is needed. So my question is, are you guys loaded down with insurance premiums? Is it a hassle? Is it costly? I thought it was hard enough to save up to get good equipment, but paying insurance premiums just goes on forever!
Any input into this would be most greatly appreciated.

Phil
 
I would talk to your lawyer about that one. He may suggest getting insurance or maybe he'll just help you come up with a disclaimer that would release you from any liability.

ETA: I'm not a lawyer, and I don't sell knives.
 
I don't think most knife makers have this kind of liability insurance, it's hard enough making money as it is.
 
I personally just put a disclaimer at the bottom of the care sheet I deliver w/ each knife. It just says:
"JB Knives is not responsible for any injury or damages resulting from the use or misuse of this knife in any way. Also, the carry and ownership of knives varies by location- it is the buyer's responsibility to ensure the ownership or carry of a particular knife is legal in their area."
So far as I know, a disclaimer should be enough to cover this liability. If you are still worried, though, check with a lawyer for sure.
I would also like to think that this would be mainly an issue with the cheap, imported- knife crowd: most custom knife buyers are much more experienced with knives and are familiar with the dangers associated, and they are less likely to be careless with a $200 one- of- a- kind custom blade than with a $80 factory piece.
 
JB Knives said:
I personally just put a disclaimer at the bottom of the care sheet I deliver w/ each knife. It just says:
"JB Knives is not responsible for any injury or damages resulting from the use or misuse of this knife in any way. Also, the carry and ownership of knives varies by location- it is the buyer's responsibility to ensure the ownership or carry of a particular knife is legal in their area."
So far as I know, a disclaimer should be enough to cover this liability. If you are still worried, though, check with a lawyer for sure.
I would also like to think that this would be mainly an issue with the cheap, imported- knife crowd: most custom knife buyers are much more experienced with knives and are familiar with the dangers associated, and they are less likely to be careless with a $200 one- of- a- kind custom blade than with a $80 factory piece.
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I agree completely. I have never heard anyone speak of liability insurance since I have been a member here. I think my wife may be paranoid due to all the lawsuits they received while working at the Hartford.
 
I applaud your wife's insight. Smart lady. Not enough knifemakers are as concerned or knowledgeable about this as they should be.
 
Isn't it a shame that insurance companies can make money off of careless people that lack common sense. If a person were to cut himself with a custom knife (sheesh, I didn't think it was that sharp...!) and sues the knifemaker....the idiot gets paid...and of course, you know the insurance company is making money...it's the isn't artisan that would be left out in the cold.....
 
I'm not advocating everyone have insurance, BTW. That is a personal call. Everyone should be aware of the potential for loss and guage their own level of concern. Different locales will have varying probabilites of people willing to sue for their own misuse of a knife. Live in a conservative area with a lot of hunters and you're just a damned fool for not using a knife properly if you cut yourself and it would be like blaming the sky for rain. There are liberal soccer moms everywhere, though, who think that's it's YOUR fault if her husband left that fighting knife out and their precious little unbehaved child stabs the neighbor kid with it because he saw dad playing with it like he was fighting. He has his lawyer write up a suit against you to appease the old lady because they just got sued by the neighbor and you're screwed and in need of retaining an expensive lawyer. The civil court system is for the wealthy, and the little guy is easily screwed because he can't afford to fight back.

Like I said, I'm not suggesting yes or no on liability insurance, because the cost when you say "Oh, I make knives" is staggering. Just be aware of the issue and make informed decisions. Don't expect a simple liability waiver at the bottom of an order form to protect you, either. As a very sharp Chicago attorney once told me, "A good lawyer can beat a good liability waver in court any day of the week."

The business of selling knives is as complex as any other business, and subject to the same pratfalls and liabilities. Ya makes yer choices and ya takes yer lumps.
 
fitzo said:
Ya makes yer choices and ya takes yer lumps.
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The above was well spoken, Michael (the whole post, I mean, not just the quote above!). A pal of mine that is also a lawyer (and a member of BF!) will be queried on this topic the next chance I get. It is my assumption, however, that he will speak in vague generalizations and suggest that one and all consider speaking to their own attorney on this matter, as local laws and customs, as Mr. Fitzgerald has so eloquently pointed out, are different in many ways.
 
Yeah i will use the disclaimer from now on. Good idea.
Hey McDonalds got sued for serving hot coffee. What's next?
Whoops never should ask that question cause you might find out "What Next"
Take Care
TJ
 
I am afraid that in the near future every every knife maker will have a name like JS Knives L.L.C. (Limited Liability Corporation) where if sued the can only sue your business and not get your home. Like fitzo pointed when they get sue happy there looking for everybody, including the guy who mined the ore.
 
There was a post a while back on just this and I believe the consensus ended up being to provide a disclaimer if you wanted (i.e. a sticker sealing the box with the knife in it). I tried searching for it but it seems the search feature is having a tantrum again....
 
The bad news is that you can't make Nerf balls nowdays without some idiot injuring himself and suing.

The good news is that people who buy custom knives are generally mature people who believe in personal responsibility, and are not the type to sue because they cut themselves.

The other good news is that knifemakers are poor, and it's not worth suing poor people. Better to slip and fall in a casino somewhere.

Here is the disclaimer I use on my website:

"Schaller Handmade Knives are sold as working tools and collectors' pieces. Laws regarding the carry, use, and possession of knives vary considerably from state to state and community to community. Schaller Handmade Knives encourages responsible knife use and compliance with all laws regarding carry and use."
 
I've never heard of a knifemaker getting sued for an accident happening with one of their knives. We definitely live in a world with a diminished sense of personal responsibility, though, and have all heard the term "frivolous lawsuits". The probability of it ever happening is extremely small, I agree.

It is important, though, that the new knifemaker think about this stuff and be aware of possibilities.

More important than the single issue of needing liability insurance, I think it is critical for the new knifemaker to have the presence of mind to consider issues like this and start selling knives "eyes wide open" rather than jump in unheeding with a blind joy at getting money for their creations.

There is a list of things like this, examples being whether one's home insurance covers a fire started in your shop if the insurance finds out you're selling knives you made there, or whether a propane forge voids it as well. How about a gallon of acetone in the shop? If you hurt yourself real bad in the shop and lose time from work, will your health insurance cover you if you were hurt in the process of making something you sell and they find out? Will disability insurance apply?

Over the years I've seen a lot of knifemakers never even stop to consider the consequences of their actions in their rush to sell stuff.

You can't be frozen in place by these issues, but one can't be oblivious to them, either. I think magneto asked an important question.
 
The gun control lobby tried that crud with guns. It scared Colt's spineless management into producing a "safer gun," which has never entered production by the way, but the notion of liability has not been placed on gun makers...yet. Disclaimers do work to the extent state law allow. So I suggest we don't get too excited yet and be involved in state politics. If push comes to shove, I'd say there are enough knife makers on this form alone that we could get a conservative lawyer looking to make a name for their self to represent our interest.

It is a situation we should keep a close eye on though. I'd suggest that any knife maker out there who encounters a problem...DO NOT suffer in silence! Let the blade forum community know and I'll bet we can work something out.

And a word of advise, always try to verify that the purchaser of your hard work is of legal age and who they claim to be. The perception of a few of us WILL be applied to all.

chiger,
 
Disclaimers are reasonably standard, and you do not need to be a lawyer to write an effective one. I think you could find a template on the internet. Your disclaimer should include that "use of any bladed implement is inherently dangerous and that by purchasing the product you agree to the terms expressed in this disclaimer."
 
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