Question for knifemakers...do your feelings get hurt...

RL

RL

Joined
Aug 24, 1999
Messages
2,286
Hi Knifemakers,

Knife Knuts often talk about "building a relationship" with a custom maker...they also talk about the joys of designing your own knife or ordering something to your specs...so this got me thinking...do knifemakers take it personally when someone orders a knife and then "flips it" soon after receiving it? I mean after all the back and forth discussions, all the "is my knife ready yet?" emails just to see it end up on the sales corner...


RL
 
I believe there is a lesson to be learned from these episodes. A client will call or write, making very specific requests, believing he has designed the ideal knife. Should the maker make the knife exactly like he ordered, it may or may not be what he actually wanted. These are the knives that get sold rather quickly, the problem is that the makers name is on it and the man who designed the knife as well as the motivating factors for its conception remain unknown. Those who see the knife may wonder about the maker's sanity.

When I get a request of this nature, I ask what the knife is for? Then Why (the design). Two have actually convinced me to make a knife I did not like when I first saw their drawings. They were experienced in the use of the knife of their dreams, had a valid reason for each and every element of design and the knives worked for them.
 
If I can make the knife of their dreams and it will cut like it is supposed to, I can find no reason to question the seller of the knife. Many people have many reasons for selling things that mean something to them and I am not one to question. I know some people that are always buying a different vehicle every 6 mo. or so and they always are looking for something better or different. That just happens to be their lifestyle and I can accept that. Same as with knives or guns.
 
That doesn't bother me so much as something else I've had happen a couple times. After going through several changes in the design and materials, I've had someone tell me when the blade is finished and ready to ship that they're short on funds and can't pay for it.

Now that really hurts your feelings, especially when you sell knives to pay for groceries. I don't mind waiting for the customer's next payday; that happens to all of us, but I do mind having to try to sell someone else's unusual preferences.
 
I had a fun conversation offline with a fellow collector of knives, and when it comes to customs or benchmade knives, which tend to be higher in price, we tend to be fickle only out of financial necessity!

Your curiosity about a blde gets satisfied once you have it sometimes, and although you'd love to keep it, you have to sell it to afford the next knife that gets you curious.

I tend to stay with user-blades, whether production or custom.

This is an addiction, we can't get anough knives in our collection, and like druggies, we sell off whatever we have to to acquire our next fix!

Best,

Brian.
 
Had a lengthy conversation with one maker the other day - I will not name him - unless he chooses to.

He described this scenario as very irritating:

Someone orders a knife - the to and from emails correspondence follows, and the "I love the new knife" email coming in after the knife has been delivered...

Only to see it on the "for sale" forum that same night..

He does NOT appreciate this - to say the least...
 
Once the customer has purchased the knife it is theirs to do with as they please. You know that there are individuals who just keep rolling their collection over as quickly as possible.

Admittedly these individuals are very rare so that is why I don't get offended when it happens, I feel a little disapointed that the purchaser never got a chance to see how well the knife performed before it was sold. Then I also feel a little disapointed when the knife goes into a showcase never to be used, OK there is a touch of pride that they thought so much of the knife to put it in a place of honour but I make my knives to be used and think that the purchaser is missing out by not using it.
 
Ed,

I'm not a maker, but I am a collector/investor. I can see how you would feel USED. Why not then , as we KNIFE KNUTS are building these relationships, not give a commitment on making it until you have LEARNED them. I'm saying get to know their character. Are they honest? How about their integrity? Do they even use a knife reguarly? Why not TEST them first? After you can answer positive on such questions as these, ask them POINT BLANK, What are you going to do with this knife? How long are you going to keep it? You as the maker HAVE the right to know. Especially if it's their specifications with YOUR name on it.

A new maker should keep this in mind too. The pieces with their name on them is what in the long run will make or break them.

I do not use my knives at all. I collect as an investment and joy. I do not look at knives simply as tools, they are ART. Therefore I look at the makers as artist. (LISTEN COLLECTORS) YOU SHOULD NEVER TELL AN ARTIST WHAT TO MAKE!! You will always get less than you pay. You should select the artist of your choice and be WILLING to trust their judgment. If you will just ask the maker to make you something in a certain price range and leave it at that, you will most likily get more than you you pay. I deal with four makers. I have NEVER been burned! It is because of a KNIFE KNUT building relationships and an artist LIKING what they are creating.

Just a thought.

Darby Neaves
 
Darby: The you hit the nail on the head. I always ask what they want the knife for. The best knives come from me when they answer the question and then say make me a knife you like. This makes the order an easy one to fill with confidence.

I have marked the knife "custom for xxxxx". But the name goes on only after I get paid, sometimes it is hard to find another cleint with the same name. Especially liking the knife his namesake ordered.
 
Thanks for the responses so far...

it seems to me that there are two patterns here: either the maker thinks it's part of business (you make excellent points raker) or they do take some offense (Blilious, that's exactly what I would have thought)

Ed, I see your point but what about when it is a "regular" knife?? you did say that your best knives are your own design...so what if a customer gets one of these knives and sells it right away?

RL
 
Once they have purchased it, it is theirs to do with as they please. If they don't like it for some reason, I would like to know why, I am always open to communication with those who purchased my knives.
I do feel some attachment to my knives and like to know as much about the places they go and events they share with their companions. I offer a money back guarantee for the purchase price for my lifetime. Very few have come back to me, usually after some financial hardship or the death of the owner and his wife returns the knife. I do not feel obligated to purchase a knife back when the new owner paid more for the knife than I origonaly sold the knife for, but will buy it back for what I sold it for.
 
I strongly agree with the idea that makers like Ed are artists and one should not tell an artist, "put a little more red over there and could you please paint a couple of seagulls in the background?" :)
But, on the other hand, knives are also for using and there are functional features that I think can legitimately requested to suit the customer's intended use, techniques or ergonomics. I would never dream of insulting or offending a knifemaker and when I get a masterpiece like a Fowler in my hot little hands, it stays there. But from time to time I also ask for a truly custom piece, always in consultation with the maker, with the benefit of his advice and with his creative input and approval [I sometimes also say, make me something you've been wanting to try], For example, I very much admire the work of Canadian Mastersmith, Wally Hayes, and I have a number of his standard models and a few experiments too. But I needed a wakizashi as my personal home defence knife and my personal preference and techniques favour a double edged blade. So in consultation with him I asked for a double edged variation. He designed something great. He's now made a few. Another example. Niel Blackwood. After getting one of his standard hunters I realized the design would be a great basis for the ideal stellite kayaking/canoeing knife I rely on so heavily. He was good enough to listen to my suggestions [and Gus K's too] and make a great one. But the final design was clearly his. You'll have to pry that knife out of my cold dead hands, after you fish me out of the river or ocean where you find me. :)
So although in some respects it's absolutely true that it's ridiculous to ask for changes to a work of Art like a Pronghorn, it can also be 100% legit to ask for custom touches as well. I'm sure Masumane did it - it's one of the gteat things about knives!!
As for asking for a custom qnd then bailing, that's disgusting. There would have to be some pretty strong mitigating circumstances to excuse it.
 
Working with a maker to come up with a colaboration that makes sense can be enjoyable for all. The concepts I make reference to are stuff aspects of design that I feel are antithetical to function,like gut hooks, serrates, file work on the spine, skull crushers, high trailing points abrasive thumb rests, etc. When a client requests a little more of this or that, I get involved in the development. When he requests a patch of quick sand in the middle of his drive way, I refer him to someone else.
 
Like George T, above, I might find it irritating if the customer turned it over right after receiving it. But on the other hand, I could use it as a sales barometer, and, what the hell, raise my prices, and cut out the middleman, so to speak.
Just one idea. ;)
 
Well, once the customer has paid for teh knife, he can do with it whatever he chooses and there are many reasons for someone to sell something - not necessarily because he is not happy with it. Of course, if the knife is going for half the price he paid you less than a week before, that makes you wonder if there was something wrong...
Regarding Jerry Hossom's comment, that really may hurt, even more so when you see the same guy who was out of money to honor his order showing around a knife someone else had recently put for sale. I have been a victim of these situations more than once at the Forums and outside them, too, and it really makes me mad.
 
Ed,

It's funny how you mentioned skull crushers among features you dislike on a knife. I've come to the conclusion that you can't beat nature in designing a skull crusher, and your sheep horn handles are about as good as it gets... :D

-Jose
 
So Ed, I was wondering who you would recommend to put a patch of quicksand in someones driveway. I was thinking it might be a good way to get rid of unwanted guests. Then again it would probably get rid of wanted guests, neighborhood kids and pets as well. Oh well, no plan is perfect.

I have in the past sold knives that I had recently purchased so that I could buy a new knife that I could in no other way afford. Hopefully I have not insulted the maker of the knife that I sold. Not being rich, I have to feed my fix for knives in any way that I can.

One thing I would never do is order a knife to my own, outside the norm specifications, and then after it was ready tell the maker that I no longer wanted it. If I ever were to order such a knife I would expect the maker to ask to be paid in advance and if I were to cancel the order I would expect to lose the money I had put down.
 
I doubt any maker would actually want to see his knives sold. Once a knife hits the secondary market, it increases the available supply of a certain maker's work and potentially costs that maker an order. Further, when a collector sells a knife to buy another, that collector is implicitly stating that he does not like that knife quite as much as the new knife. No matter what any craftsman may tell you, there's a certain amount of pride that goes into every custom piece, and when the buyer decides he doesn't want it anymore, that pride is hurt a bit.

Ah, but then, there are the traders, speculators, and profiteers. These are the customers that will value a knife's profit potential more than the knife itself. It happens all the time with custom Emersons, Onions, and many other knives that trade at premiums to their issue-prices in the secondary market. And somehow it all just seems so petty when you see someone buy a knife at a show, walk down the aisle to a dealer's table, and sell the knife for a tidy profit.

Some may argue that this phenomenon is but an expression of free-market capitalism, and to an extent, they'd be right. After all, if the arbitrage exists, the price discrepancy will be exploited by rational investors until the point at which the supply curve intersects the demand curve and an equilibrium is reached. But come on, folks, knives aren't commodities. They're not made to be traded around at knife shows by a bunch of investors and speculators - they're made to be used and to fulfill a destiny much more noble than a mere transfer of ownership.
 
My own little take is the following:
I went to my first knife show last November in New York with the goal of finding the one custom knife that'll pretty much do it for me. I found a beaut which kinda opened my eyes to the whole scene. I then found another a few months later that fit my needs a little more so I sold in order to buy (I'm currently rich although the money part hasen't yet caught up).
Then I found it - the one folder that hit hard. Bought it and sold number 2. I can't predict the future, but I think that I did it with this one. My first folder is of a "better" quality, but this one just works slightly better for me.
So there it is. Nothing personal, I hope, but when money isn't an issue (work'in very hard on that) I'll probably keep'em all and maybe buy back the ones that I let go (if possible).
 
As a maker I want my knives to go to a good home where they are going to be taken care of and hopefully used. I don't care to sell to someone who's sole purpose is to turn a quick buck. If I see a history of that in a perticular customer I tend not to go out of my way for them.I know I should have no say so after the sale. These are just my personal feelings.

Wulf you said it very eloquently.


I believe dealers are necessary as Knifemakers cannot be at every show and I like to have a potential customer handle and feel the knife out thoroughly befor they purchase it.They are also a representative of the maker when he/she cannot be there and I don't think of them in the same light as the "pure profit seekers" as mentioned above.
 
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