Question for LEOs

Joined
Jan 9, 2006
Messages
164
Hi ya'll. I was wondering how often you arrest people for carrying a fixed blade where they aren't supposed to? I'm not talking about arresting a scumbag and then finding a blade on him that you can charge also. I'm talking about running people in solely for the blade itself.

This question is in regard to me specifically, so I'll share some extra information about yours truly: I'm polite and I respect cops. It's not like I would ever flee the police or do anything else utterly stupid. There's no way in hell I'm going to get in a damn knife fight. You won't find drugs or guns or any of that other crap on me because the only time I break the law is driving a little fast. Lastly, I travel all over the south--from Louisiana to Florida, everything from swamps to big cities.

So, if you found a pretty nice guy like myself walking along (or driving 88mph) with a 8" (total length) fixed blade worn horizontally on my belt, would you put bracelets on me, give me a fine, or let me walk?
 
My mistake. I am a civilian. That part was supposed to say "I'm polite" and not "I'm police". I'll edit the original post so as not to confuse.
 
Hi Dr. Benny,

I've only been in the field for a little over a year, so please take that into account when I answer your question.

I've never yet arrested anyone for carrying a conceiled fixed blade, but if I found one on someone, I definitely would. Let me tell you why: In CA it's a felony to carry a conceiled fixed blade. (Not sure about "The South"). As a Peace Officer I'm required by law to arrest anyone that has committed a felony. If I don't I can be fired and possibly sued. There's no way I'm going to risk my carreer just because I find an illegal knife on someone that's polite and looks harmless. I'll let a judge/jury decide if it was O.K. or not.

Keep in mind, if an Officer is in a position to ask you about weapons, he/she probably already has some suspicions about you. Having said that, I'll also warn you against saying to yourself "Well, I'm not going to be arousing suspicion so I should be fine." You'd probably be right, but you might just find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time and end up going to jail.

Hope that helped.

SCDUB
 
You are going to find that the answers will vary from one extreme to the next and many in the middle. This is a discretion call for most LEO's and depending on the totality of the circumstances one may find himself under arrest or having a quick show and tell with the Officer on the side of the road.

So my nswer is: It depends......................................
 
scdub....I put in many years in NYC as a LEO and I see your attitude which is a result of your training as common place among officers in there first few years. The new officers coming out of the acadamies across the county are a bit scary to any knife collectors/users since they went to high school going through metal detectors, and where taught that even carrying a pocket knife was some how wrong. That all being said, I hope there is a basis that a fixed blade kinfe is legally carried in CA, as the differing laws concerning knife carry are varied and some are way out of line.
In Ny the NYC Admin Code states that you must carry a knife concealled and if it is a lockback it must have a blade under 4". The rest of the state does not have a size limit and you can carry it concealled or not other than NYC. I am saying this because I could have made thousands of arrest by acting on every person I saw who was carring a knife on their belt or a visible clip in their pocket.....I followed common sense and left the law abiding tax payers alone.....just my opinion of course. I am manageing real estate now and I see the rookies jump on a guy driving while he is talking on a cell phone without a head set and he is agressively pulled over .....too much adreneline for me....lol
 
I am not a LEO, but my landlord has been a State Trooper for 20 years, so I asked him the same question. He said it's wide open to interpretation here in Maine. In Maine you are allowed to have a concealed blade provided it is under 4 inches. If it's over 4 inches it has to be in plain sight. So basically you can carry a machete in public so long as it's in plain sight. Now here's where it get's tricky. There's a "§2001-A. Threatening display of or carrying concealed weapon" statute here in Maine. This basically states that you are not allowed to carry any weapon that can be used a defensive weapon. http://janus.state.me.us/legis/statutes/25/title25sec2001-a.html . This not only includes knives but also brass knuckles, collapsible batons, etc. My landlord told me there are no set guidelines for officers to go by and the initial responding officer is the one that gets to make the "call". In theory, if the officer is having a bad day or does not like you for whatever reason, a Swiss Army knife can fall under this category.
 
DoctorBenny said:
So, if you found a pretty nice guy like myself walking along (or driving 88mph) with a 8" (total length) fixed blade worn horizontally on my belt, would you put bracelets on me, give me a fine, or let me walk?

Just to clarify on California law: It is illegal to carry a concealed fixed blade, but perfectly legal to carry any sized fixed blade on your belt - although if you're carrying a monster bowie on your belt while shopping at the local mall, you can expect to get an inordinate amount of attention from the police!

At any rate, as far as state law is concerned, your belt knife would be legal.
 
I am not a Police Officer but I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night............
 
scdub said:
As a Peace Officer I'm required by law to arrest anyone that has committed a felony. If I don't I can be fired and possibly sued. There's no way I'm going to risk my carreer just because I find an illegal knife on someone that's polite and looks harmless. I'll let a judge/jury decide if it was O.K. or not.

Keep in mind, if an Officer is in a position to ask you about weapons, he/she probably already has some suspicions about you. Having said that, I'll also warn you against saying to yourself "Well, I'm not going to be arousing suspicion so I should be fine." You'd probably be right, but you might just find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time and end up going to jail.
Since you're a rookie, and attempted to answer this question in a polite and respectful manner, I shall also attempt to be polite and respectful.

As Tom said, your current attitude is a direct result of your Academy training combined with growing up in an era where youngsters look at things like metal detectors, CCTV cameras, Internet monitoring, random searches, and prescription happy pills for all as somehow "normal." Folks who grew up in the 50s, 60s, 70s, or even the early 80s know that this state of affairs never was considered "normal" in the past -- you can blame some of it on technological advances or the ever-present threat of "terrorism", or you can blame it on a corrupt system afraid of it's own citizenry. There are valid reasons why the mainstream citizenry no longer trusts their elected officials -- in earlier decades, such a mindset was considered fringe or paranoid, but now it is the norm. The folks who run the Academys are typically not the best and the brightest -- they tend to be "politicians" rather than cops -- and the training you receive tends to reinforce their elitist mindset that "anyone can be a criminal", "everyone has secrets", and "it's Us versus Them." Young impressionable rookies -- who, themselves, are accustomed to having no "right to privacy" -- thus feel compelled to pull over every car they see going 8 mph over the speed limit, playing loud music, or "weaving within the lane" momentarilly -- then asking the driver, "Do you have any contraband or weapons in this vehicle? Do you mind if I take a quick look? Why not???" This is considered by more experienced cops, as well as the media and the general public to be unnecessary and counter-productive. It is meaningless harassment and abuse of power, that, rather than inspiring respect for the law, will promote contempt and resentment of it.

The same goes for police (as well as "peace officers") who decide that they are going to inflict their own, personal, idea of "Zero Tolerance" on the public. This is known as being a "Supercop" (not a compliment). Supercops tend to amass stacks of complaints against them early in their short careers -- after a few major complaints (from "supercitizens" up the food chain a few notches from the average LEO), they may not lose their badge, put they'll certainly be pulled off the street and placed somewhere (like Corrections or the motor pool) where they can do far less damage to Public Relations. Other Supercops push the wrong person at the wrong time, and an "incident" ensues -- this may result in either Supercop in ICU, or facing an IAD investigation for shooting a respected citizen whom he had chosen to provoke into a physical confrontation.

I do not think that the typical Supercop set out to be bad, or even made a conscious decision to be bad -- but the "Rules" they've been taught to follow all their lives were valued above all else (i.e., compassion, fairness, common sense) -- and now they have been appointed an official "enforcer of the Rules"! What a great honor that is!

In conclusion, as most older and more experienced cops will tell you, sure -- lots of people break the law. Even cops, judges, DAs, and members of the President's Cabinet. There are many, many laws, and most of us have broken a few -- even without realizing it. If you demand to search a vehicle without probable cause, thus recieving implied "consent", and find an "unlawful" knife (say, an inch above legal limit), and the individual has co-operated fully, obviously isn't a scumbag, and can even provide a valid reason for possessing the knife (which might've been dropped on the floorboards and forgotten after a recent camping trip), then you're telling us that you're in favor of arresting the guy, leaving his car on the side of the road (is he with his family?), taking him downtown to process him, locking him in a holding cell with the local degenerates until he can contact his lawyer and make bail, then post his name in the paper for his neighbors and co-workers to see, and subject him to the time/expense/humiliation of our modern court system? That, sir, would make you a Supercop -- whom no-one likes -- not the public, the courts, your supervisor, his supervisor, or other cops. Supercops make everyone else look bad.

In decades past, when a rookie was fresh from the Academy, he's immediately be assigned to a more experienced street cop who would drive him around and explain how things were really done. Nowadays, this isn't always done. If the local PD isn't overly concerned with Public Relations, this can be a nightmare.

Don't worry, no-one is gonna "fire or even sue" you for using your discretion to let someone off for a minor violation (even if it does happen to be a "felony" in your jurisdiction). Letting a drunk driver go, or letting a druggie drive off with half his stash could get you in serious trouble. Allowing an old man with arthritis to carry a small fixed-blade will not. If you're unable to tell who the REAL "bad guys" are, you shouldn't be in law enforcement.
 
" lots of people break the law. Even cops, judges, DAs, and members of the President's Cabinet. There are many, many laws, and most of us have broken a few -- even without realizing it."

That kind of boils down to the core of my entire thread. I was wondering if there is a level of accepted delinquency? I was hoping that the vast majority of police would basically see that I'm a nice guy and that I mean no harm so just let me on my way. My uncle, who is in the Albuquerque PD, told me that the vast majority would indeed just let me go, but that they don't have to.
 
I've interacted with Law Enforcement hundreds of times. Probably 95% of these encounters were positive -- or, at least didn't leave me with bad feelings.

I've also met a few "Supercops" -- this one rookie NYSP that some genius allowed to drive around solo -- even after amassing about a dozen complaints, finally stepped on his d*ck one too many times. He liked to pull people over and subject them to improper searches, then charge them if he found anything. This young nurse -- in uniform with RN plates on her car -- was subjected to such a search. He dumped out her purse on the side of Rte 17 and found a can of pepperspray that someone had recently given her (it was still in it's original packaging, thus unable to be used). He arrested her for "Possession of a Noxious Substance" (this was in the early 90s, when pepperspray was still illegal in NY). She complained, and it was in the papers. Other, similar, complaints started flooding in. Then he REALLY did it . . . showing up at a structure fire he heard about on the radio (police sometimes respond to help direct traffic or offer other assistance), this young psychopath had the audacity to start barking orders at the Fire Chief!!! He lost his badge.

Most cops are decent, some are even cool. A number of my friends are involved in law enforcement. Then, there are the bad ones -- with the Supercop being the most common. Bullies with chips on their shoulder come next. Then the criminals with badges (who, fortunately, are rarest of all).

When you get pulled over or stopped on the street, a LEO needs probable cause to search you. Even a frisk "for the officer's protection" needs valid justification or it constitutes an unlawful search (you can be arrested and charged, but a good lawyer might be able to get the evidence tossed as "fruit of the poisonous tree"). Under the 5th amendment, you are not required to incriminate yourself, and telling an untruth to a cop is not the same as purjuring yourself under oath in a court of law. If it's unlawful to carry a fixed blade, and you choose to take the risk and carry concealed, don't let anyone know about it, plead ignorance if called on it, and make sure it's single-edged with under a 5" blade (the smaller the better -- a 3" blade is sufficient for most chores).

If you look "respectable" and treat the officer politely, most cops will let you off with a warning, some will let you off but confiscate the knife, but a few would do their best to ruin your life. It's a roll of the dice, but the odds are in your favor.
 
aaronjayl said:
I am not a LEO, but my landlord has been a State Trooper for 20 years, so I asked him the same question. He said it's wide open to interpretation here in Maine. In Maine you are allowed to have a concealed blade provided it is under 4 inches. If it's over 4 inches it has to be in plain sight. So basically you can carry a machete in public so long as it's in plain sight. Now here's where it get's tricky. There's a "§2001-A. Threatening display of or carrying concealed weapon" statute here in Maine. This basically states that you are not allowed to carry any weapon that can be used a defensive weapon. http://janus.state.me.us/legis/statutes/25/title25sec2001-a.html . This not only includes knives but also brass knuckles, collapsible batons, etc. My landlord told me there are no set guidelines for officers to go by and the initial responding officer is the one that gets to make the "call". In theory, if the officer is having a bad day or does not like you for whatever reason, a Swiss Army knife can fall under this category.


Wow I didn't know you could carry a fixed blade concealed if the blade is under 4 inches. You're right though, Maine laws leaves it wide open for LEO. I haven't had any trouble carrying a fixed blade but I don't carry huge 10 inch blades unless I have a reason. They're pretty good around here, and don't care as long as you aren't bothering anyone or being a menace. They're more concerned with OUI's and drugs then a 4inch blade.
 
It all depends upon you, the officer, and how you carry it. I have let people go with a warning for carring a concealed knife or over looked it totally, but I have also charged others for the same action. The difference is the persons attitude.

You must remember that knives are still weapons that can kill quickly in skilled and even non skilled hands. I have always stated that I would rather be shot than cut with a knife. I still hold that to this day.

If you know its a violation of your state/county/city laws, then you take the risk of going to jail. There in lies what I stated at the top, it relies on you, the officer, and how you carry it.

On a side note, I am an FTO and PTO and have trained over 40 officers. During that time, I have made it a point not to call new officers "Rookies" since its mostly used as a slur. Added to this is the fact that even on their first night, they can pay the ultimate price of blood.
 
Grampa said:
Just to clarify on California law: It is illegal to carry a concealed fixed blade, but perfectly legal to carry any sized fixed blade on your belt - although if you're carrying a monster bowie on your belt while shopping at the local mall, you can expect to get an inordinate amount of attention from the police!

Please note that some California cities and counties have local laws prohibiting the open carry of knives. Los Angeles City and Los Angeles County prohibit the open carry of any knife with a blade 3" or greater (see, for example, LAMC 55.10). There are exceptions for "lawful" occupational, recreational, or religious purposes, but no one knows what those are, as they have not been interpreted by any court (to the best of my knowledge). It's worth avoiding being a test case. There are a handful of other California cities and counties that have similar open carry and/or length restrictions. Violation is misdemeanor level, not felony.

Sorry to divert from this very interesting thread - now, back to the topic...
 
I once was in a car when pulled over and told the cop about the 3inch blade in my pocet and he let me go.

Have you ever been asked by a leo if you are carying any weapons, then they say, knifes, guns, grenades, RPG, machineguns. ITs like there trying to break the tension or something. Since if someone actually had an RPG I doubt the wouldnt admint it. WHY do they as you this?
 
I have been asked that question that goes something like "Are you carrying any weapons? Knives? Guns?" I responding by saying "I don't carry weapons, but I have a knife. It's a tool." It was a miniscule keychain knife that was in question, rather than a 4" fixed blade.
 
Check Bernard Levigne's "knife laws of the 50 states." He posts here, and you can find his site through a Google search.
 
I'm not asking whether or not carrying a fixed blade is illegal or not. That is a regional question. My inquiry implies that it is illegal and asks whether or not most officers would take a generally law abiding citizen to lockup for carrying it.
 
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