Question for LEOs

[scdub]

Hi All,

First off, let me say that I think knife laws are silly for the most part. I despise the thought, that many seem to have, that you can legislate away an "evil" knife.

I know that if I happen to be stabbed in the course of my carreer (I'd really prefer not) it will probably be with a $3 steak knife or a box cutter, or a screwdriver for that matter. I'm not afraid of knives, I'm afraid of people that want to stab me.

Knives are tools. True.

Most knives can be used as effective close combat weapons. True.

Warrior: The reason some cops ask something like "do you have any weapons? granades? RPG's?" is to encourage you to say, "No". Then the Officer might ask. "Mind if I check?" Now, if you say you don't mind, you have given verbal consent to a pat down search. You can change your mind at any time (At least in CA), but at that point the Officer doesn't need any probable cause. If you consent to a search and the officer asked about drugs, he/she can check your pockets and person for extremely small objects like bindles of meth. "Any drugs in your car?" Mind if I check? Now if a cop pulls me over today and asks me that I might very well tell him/her that I DO mind, as I don't want to spend 30 minutes or more with strangers rooting around my car. Do you have to give consent? No. Does almost everyone give consent even though they know they're hiding something? Yes. (I'm really not sure why.) If an Officer is honest, and the vast majority I've known seem to be, he/she knows that any evidence obtained illegally will not be admissible as evidence. No Officer wants to be in that position.

Shadowblade, I appreciate that you were polite and respectful. I'm sorry that you've had such bad experiences with LEOs.

I should know by now never to speak in absolutes. I should have said I'd "almost definitly" arrest someone on a felony knife charge. Would I arrest Grandpa in his fishing gear and raincoat with the fillet knife accidentally conceiled? Probably not. Where exactly do I draw the line? It's hard to say. It's probably true that I draw the line a little higher than someone that's been around for a long time.

In my department there is a definite concern that a person could get fired for "failure to perform duty" as it would probably be termed when it was discovered that I'd found a knife on Grampa but didn't arrest him. Also, in CA I'm pretty sure that the family of the kid Grampa kills with the knife 30 minutes after I contacted him would be more than happy to sue me silly.

The point I was really trying to make is that in answer to Doctor Benny's implied question of "is it worth the risk for me to carry an illegal fixed blade?", I felt the answer should be a resounding "probably not" as in many areas this act, all by itself, could get you put in jail, and in some cases also get you charged with a felony. If that risk is worth it for you to take, then by all means...

SCDUB

 

[Eyegor]

Have you ever been asked by a leo if you are carying any weapons, then they say, knifes, guns, grenades, RPG, machineguns. ITs like there trying to break the tension or something. Since if someone actually had an RPG I doubt the wouldnt admint it. WHY do they as you this?

It is funny that you mention that. I just addressed that very statement in another thread. I am guilty of asking the question that way. Most people suffer varying degrees of stress when encountering Law Enforcement. How many times have we seen drivers act stupid on the road when they spot a patrol car? The purpose of the question is to put my mind more at ease, and judge the response, both verbal and non-verbal. The purpose of the way I ask it is to help put the other person at ease as well. It dos seem goofy but it usuallly works.

 

[DirtDiver]

As a Fed LEO, I can tell you that I have never arrested good intentioned citizens for carrying a knife regardless of the size, nor have any of my colleagues, but then again, I don't work in an airport I still remember carrying my three inch Case Scout folder on planes when I was a kid, complete with spoon and fork. :thumbup:

As a knife nut I may be a little partial

 

[Ed Fowler]

Discretion is the ultimate function of the police. The individual officer has the greatest discretion than any other aspect of the criminal justice system. You have heard from a good cop who by his response well knows what the concept means.
When stopped say no to search, no to weapons etc. they have no legal right to force an answer. If arrested provide no information but request to call an attorney. This is your only defense against a bad cop.

Don't knowingly violate the law, it can be expensive.

Do your fighting in court and through your legislators, contact them often and say thanks to the NRA every day for preserving our rights, for without them we would now be facing the kind of mentality the Britts know now.

I just threw my hat in the ring for county sheriff, my campaing is designed to call attention to the officers to lack discretion. This is one way to make them answer to their attitude. The bad cops widen the gap between the people and the police and only make it tougher on everyone, including themselves.

 

[Ed Fowler]

TYR shaddowblade and Tom19176. Your wisdom should be a part of every law enforcement academy manual, first and last page. Just maybe in another 100 years law enforcement will have earned the trust and respect they have neerly lost.

 

[duck!]

If you look "respectable" and treat the officer politely, most cops will let you off with a warning, some will let you off but confiscate the knife, but a few would do their best to ruin your life. It's a roll of the dice, but the odds are in your favor.

There is something in what you- and others on this thread- say that bothers me. I don't doubt that you are right and I know that officers must use their own best judgement. But the idea that the law is enforced differently based on the perception of the officer about what is "respectable" is a real problem. If the law is enforced more rigorously against someone with long hair, or short hair, or dirty clothes, or black skin... etc. then the law will not long be respected by those who are victims of this behavior.

 

[Merek]

.....Most people suffer varying degrees of stress when encountering Law Enforcement. ....QUOTE]

After a hard afternoon's work mowing my parent's yard and loading trash, etc. I was pulled over for failure to make a complete stop. It was BS. I DID actually exceed the posted limit (35 in a 30, and rising) as I was on my way to go eat and my mind was elsewhere.
The cop was a smartass from the first moment. Live Oak. Small bedroom community of San Antonio.
So I exit my truck and proceed with the license/registration routine. As I hand over the papers Cop notices my hands are shaking. (EXTREME hunger. Low blood sugar.)
"Why are you shaking? Whadderya so nervous about? Somethin' to hide?"
"No sir. Hungry. You drove past my parent's house twice in 2 hours while I was working.... Hot day. Sure am looking forward to a burger and a tall cold ice tea."
"Well.... It's MY experience that anybody that nervous has something to hide... Contraband? Weapons?"
(I just HAPPENED to leave my 7" hunting knife at home the day before. Whew!)
"No, Sir. Help yourself... (the door is standing open).
Longstoryshort: He calls 2 deputies to come search my vehicle. Nothing of course except my Gerber camp ax, which for some reason is NOT illegal to have under your seat.
Still got the ticket for failure to stop and a warning for speeding.

Side Note: WHOOHOO!!! It just started RAINING big dogs! Us drought stricken Central Texans are gettin' all happy! It'll dry up tomorrow.....

 

[Ed Fowler]

Discretion is the most significant aspect of an officers job. Those who lack discretion should not be in the profession.

 

[talonturbo]

Discretion is the most significant aspect of an officers job. Those who lack discretion should not be in the profession.

I agree with duck, in being worried about many of these posts. I have a shaved head, and am turning 25 but look 21 tops, decently tattooed and work out. Throw a sports car in there. Always wearing Oaks. Rap Music (among many things). Instant bad cop...USUALLY. I'm extremely polite and well spoken, but only meet a genuinely nice cop on the rare occassion. I'm usually type-cast as a thug. Too bad so many LEO's are allowed to use their judgement, I've generally had bad experiences. It's taught me how to build performance vehicles for customers in a granny mobile exterior. Getting pulled over for having rims in some places sucks.

 

[Ed Fowler]

If you want to research the bias in knife law enforcement, just to the Kalif. State Supreme Court Briefs and look at the names of those who have been charged with violation of knife laws. Last time I looked over 90% had last names well known in Mexico.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Talonturbo: Sounds like you have learned the secret with the granny exterior, but don't tell anyone!

 

[cb4life_30]

Because knife laws are so gray and I love carrying all types of knives sometimes more than one at a time. I tend to err on the side of caution. That is I conceal everything in a nonthreatening manner. That way since I draw no unwanted attention I won't be searched. I completely avoid any place that has metal detectors. This way has worked for me for years. Kind of the out of site out of mind theory. "You can have my knife when you pry it from my cold dead hands"

 

[Regolith]

I once was in a car when pulled over and told the cop about the 3inch blade in my pocet and he let me go.

Have you ever been asked by a leo if you are carying any weapons, then they say, knifes, guns, grenades, RPG, machineguns. ITs like there trying to break the tension or something. Since if someone actually had an RPG I doubt the wouldnt admint it. WHY do they as you this?

I've answered that way before. However, it was in a bit of a different context. I was a sophomore in HS, and my class was on a field trip touring the local county "Safety Administration Building" (i.e., police HQ and local county lockup), and the guy who was giving us the tour asked the question of everyone in the class. He was a narcotics officer that came and gave talks at our school every week or so, and since it was a pretty small town he knew all of us and knew I was joking.

EDIT: Misread that. We were asked, half jokingly (we were going into a the jail area, so there was a good reason for it) if we had any weapons, and I answered "yeah, I think I have a missile launcher in my back pocket..."

 

[MORIMOTOM]

hi doctorbenny, i am an officer in ca, and have made many knife arrests. one must consider the 'totality' of circumstances in a given situation. i probably would not stop someone walking down a sidewalk with a fixed blade in plain view suspended from a belt, not suspicious to me in and of itself. but add something else, ie, running, appearing distressed, high crime area, injuries, etc, and the situation has changed. there is not really a simple answer to your question, as no law covers every conceavable scenario. an officers discretion and judgement usually play a large part in enforcing laws.

 

[matt_w]

double post - ooops.

 

[matt_w]

Since you're a rookie, and attempted to answer this question in a polite and respectful manner, I shall also attempt to be polite and respectful.

As Tom said, your current attitude is a direct result of your Academy training combined with growing up in an era where youngsters look at things like metal detectors, CCTV cameras, Internet monitoring, random searches, and prescription happy pills for all as somehow "normal." Folks who grew up in the 50s, 60s, 70s, or even the early 80s know that this state of affairs never was considered "normal" in the past -- you can blame some of it on technological advances or the ever-present threat of "terrorism", or you can blame it on a corrupt system afraid of it's own citizenry. There are valid reasons why the mainstream citizenry no longer trusts their elected officials -- in earlier decades, such a mindset was considered fringe or paranoid, but now it is the norm. The folks who run the Academys are typically not the best and the brightest -- they tend to be "politicians" rather than cops -- and the training you receive tends to reinforce their elitist mindset that "anyone can be a criminal", "everyone has secrets", and "it's Us versus Them." Young impressionable rookies -- who, themselves, are accustomed to having no "right to privacy" -- thus feel compelled to pull over every car they see going 8 mph over the speed limit, playing loud music, or "weaving within the lane" momentarilly -- then asking the driver, "Do you have any contraband or weapons in this vehicle? Do you mind if I take a quick look? Why not???" This is considered by more experienced cops, as well as the media and the general public to be unnecessary and counter-productive. It is meaningless harassment and abuse of power, that, rather than inspiring respect for the law, will promote contempt and resentment of it.

The same goes for police (as well as "peace officers") who decide that they are going to inflict their own, personal, idea of "Zero Tolerance" on the public. This is known as being a "Supercop" (not a compliment). Supercops tend to amass stacks of complaints against them early in their short careers -- after a few major complaints (from "supercitizens" up the food chain a few notches from the average LEO), they may not lose their badge, put they'll certainly be pulled off the street and placed somewhere (like Corrections or the motor pool) where they can do far less damage to Public Relations. Other Supercops push the wrong person at the wrong time, and an "incident" ensues -- this may result in either Supercop in ICU, or facing an IAD investigation for shooting a respected citizen whom he had chosen to provoke into a physical confrontation.

I do not think that the typical Supercop set out to be bad, or even made a conscious decision to be bad -- but the "Rules" they've been taught to follow all their lives were valued above all else (i.e., compassion, fairness, common sense) -- and now they have been appointed an official "enforcer of the Rules"! What a great honor that is!

In conclusion, as most older and more experienced cops will tell you, sure -- lots of people break the law. Even cops, judges, DAs, and members of the President's Cabinet. There are many, many laws, and most of us have broken a few -- even without realizing it. If you demand to search a vehicle without probable cause, thus recieving implied "consent", and find an "unlawful" knife (say, an inch above legal limit), and the individual has co-operated fully, obviously isn't a scumbag, and can even provide a valid reason for possessing the knife (which might've been dropped on the floorboards and forgotten after a recent camping trip), then you're telling us that you're in favor of arresting the guy, leaving his car on the side of the road (is he with his family?), taking him downtown to process him, locking him in a holding cell with the local degenerates until he can contact his lawyer and make bail, then post his name in the paper for his neighbors and co-workers to see, and subject him to the time/expense/humiliation of our modern court system? That, sir, would make you a Supercop -- whom no-one likes -- not the public, the courts, your supervisor, his supervisor, or other cops. Supercops make everyone else look bad.

In decades past, when a rookie was fresh from the Academy, he's immediately be assigned to a more experienced street cop who would drive him around and explain how things were really done. Nowadays, this isn't always done. If the local PD isn't overly concerned with Public Relations, this can be a nightmare.

Don't worry, no-one is gonna "fire or even sue" you for using your discretion to let someone off for a minor violation (even if it does happen to be a "felony" in your jurisdiction). Letting a drunk driver go, or letting a druggie drive off with half his stash could get you in serious trouble. Allowing an old man with arthritis to carry a small fixed-blade will not. If you're unable to tell who the REAL "bad guys" are, you shouldn't be in law enforcement.

What a breathe of fresh air for us living in the UK, where carrying a 1 inch lock knife in public will get you arrested, fingerprinted and DNA sampled at the very least.

As someone who grew up in the 70' & 80's it reminded me just how many 'supercops' we have in the UK these days and how things used to be so different.

For example I read on a UK forum that a Police Officer said he would arrest anyone he saw dressed in fancy dress costume as pirates if they were carrying plastic flintlock pistols, 'so that the offence of carrying an imitation firearm in public without a reasonable excuse' could be investigated fully.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Way back when I was honored to teach in the National Crime Prevention Institute, a man from Scotland Yard was also working there, on loan so to speak. He was Chief Inspector Ron Dawson of the Crime Preventiion Bureau. His insight was outstanding, at first I could not understand all he had to say, then he loaned me a couple of books. The books contained the debates that took place in Parliment when Sir Robert Peel and others discussed what the nature of the proposed metropolitan police should be.

The language was foreign to me as it was all in 1800 vernacular. I read the books twice and began to understand. More thought was put in to the nature of the police at that time than has ever been considered since.

I don't understand what happened to those thougths as your situation is now what they feared the police could become. You were the leaders in crime prevention, now it seems your police invent crime as a smokescreen to mask the real problems that you face.

I am glad we whipped that mentality in 1776, hopefully you will be able to do the same some day.