Question for the seasoned pro's

Josh Dabney

Josh Dabney

Joined
Nov 23, 2008
Messages
437
Now that I've I got my KMG up and running here is a question from a complete beginners standpoint. It seems to me that grinding bevels completely freehand would be the best and most versatile way to coax a blade from raw materials, Correct?

If true I would come out ahead in the long run to just begin learning in this fashion without the use of the tool rest for this purpose.

How do you grind bevels ? tool rest or no ?

Thanks in advance for all replies. And my goal here is to learn to do it RIGHT more so than learn to do it quickly, thanks again -Josh
 
I avoid the tool rest for most operations, the first time a blade goes between it and your wheel or platen you'll have a new respect for it ;)

I grind freehand, no rest, sometimes I hold the blade with bade hands, other times I use a hooey stick to hold the blade section and bare hands to hold the tang. A hooey stick is just a scrap of wood with a notch cut in it to stabilize your blade and also allow you some more pressure. Starting out, the stick made it a lot easier for me to hold the blade, especially on the platen where the knife will try to "slip-n-slide" everywhere until you're used to it.
 
All freehand, all the time! I also only grind with bare hands. Sure, you occasionally lose a little fingernail to a belt, but IMHO that's a lot less bad than having a glove pull your hand into a running machine.

The best thing you can do is to find a maker near you to give you the basics of flat grinding in his/her shop. I know I fought with it for months and then had my errors repaired in less than 15 minutes under the watchful eye of a successful maker.

-d
 
I use a tool-rest but not for resting the blade on but as a stable point of contact for my blade holding hand. I do this if I'm using a "hooey stick" or not. My hooey is a 1/4x3/4 piece of aluminum bar with shelf notched in it. I run my tool-rest often 1/2" off the belt when using a contact wheel, if it throws it, it's no different than if it weren't there. I have run it close to belt when platen grinding. If it get caught then, the worst it will do is grind away your knife before you get the grinder off.
 
The fewer gadgets you rely on, the more versatile
you'll become......Learn to grind freehand.
 
Learn to grind free handed, you'll be able to correct mistakes. Go to Lowes or HD and get a bunch of the big wooden paint stirrers, they cost about 25 cents, practice with those using cheap AO belts.
 
Thanks guys,
I have found a fantastic local mentor whom I've already met in person and is taking me under his wing. Dave Cole- GREAT guy ! I thought I had the right idea here just wanted confirmation and wanted to do some actual grinding before meeting with Dave again so I'd have more definitive question to ask him as to technique. Just a bit of backround, I've been lurking for awhile and reading everything I could get my eyes on, tutorials, posts, books, etc. I think it's little tips that could make a huge difference in the length of time it takes to improve grinding skills, such as having a notch on the end of the push stick ( hooey stick the same?) Thanks for the tip dbalfa and thanks everyone for your input.
 
dbalfa said:
I use a tool-rest but not for resting the blade on but as a stable point of contact for my blade holding hand. I do this if I'm using a "hooey stick" or not. My hooey is a 1/4x3/4 piece of aluminum bar with shelf notched in it. I run my tool-rest often 1/2" off the belt when using a contact wheel, if it throws it, it's no different than if it weren't there. I have run it close to belt when platen grinding. If it get caught then, the worst it will do is grind away your knife before you get the grinder off.
Click to expand...

Or rip apart your $400 wheel or grab your hand with it.
 
Will,
I read somewhere about the paint sticks and ground 3 KLO's last night. Even at very slow belt speed a 36grit really eats it some paint stick !! I'm hoping that my belts come today so I can get some more realistic practice like maybe paint sticks and a 400 grit belt at moderate speed ? with the goal of simulating the rate of material removal with grinding steel on a coarse belt. Am I on the right track here ?
 
Well a 36x belt really eats steel up too :) I'd probably guess a 120 or 220 on a paint stirrer would be equal to a 36x on steel. When you're starting out I'd recommend using a 60 or 80 for doing my flat grinding, use the 36x for profiling. It'll lower your chance of making a really skinny knife :p and you won't have to worry about learning to look for the 36x scratches that will hide until 220 or so ;)
 
Will,
I was considering building a grinder to get started but decided not to fool around with grinders that would soon need upgrading which was long before I got the bandsaw so I figured a 36 would be good for profiling. Got a variety of belts all the way up to 1000 grit on the way so I've got options there. I was planning on starting with a 120 when I work up the nerve to lay into my pretty flatground O1 thinking slower stock removal trying to avoid the zero edge grind or the 1/8" tang 1/16" blade knife that seem to be common problems for newbies. Think this is is fine enough ? or 220 to start the bevels ? I'd much rather take it slow and easy than try to rush it and turn the O1 into nothing more than dust in the wind ! :D
 
Since it's VS use a 60 or 80 for the bevels. 120 or 220 to do the plunges. Going too fine is abusing a belt and creating a lot of unneeded work for everyone involved.
 
Use sharp belts. Your hands send as much information to your brain as your eyes, when you are grinding freehand. Pay attention to both.

Don't limit yourself to only one way of grinding, there are many different approaches; the more ways you know how to use a tool the more avenues will open up to you as a knife maker. No one way is the right one.

Fred
 
Will,
I really appreciate the help !! I never would have thought of using the finer grit belts for the plunge only, but it sure does make sense !!

Fred, That is sound advise for sure ! I have alot of experience with this concept from a construction standpoint and agree totally. In the right hands a circular saw is a miter, radial arm, tablesaw, and jigsaw ( for large cutouts) all wrapped in a compact lightweight package. In the wrong hands just a mulcher and a really nasty finger remover. I definatly want to learn both hollow and flat grinding. At this point I'm focused on developing repeatable tecnique as a foundation to grow with.

Thank you all very much ! Your word of wisdom are greatly appreciated and won't fall on deaf ears.
 
I freehand everything now except I have an adjustable table on a 6" disc and a1" x 42" strip sander. You will be glad you learned freehand grinding believe me.
 
not much to add here, some excellent advice has already been given

one thing that is always hard for a new knifemaker to get over is driving a belt long after it's useful life.

a dull belt can be a huge hassle

get used to throwing away belts

trying to save the last little bit of a 7 dollar belt will waste a LOT of time and I get MUCH cleaner, faster grinds with a fresh belt
 
A few things that occured to me while I was grinding some SFCs out, Dave Cole probably told you but I'm going to repeat it for people that may be reading and don't have the benefit of a teacher:

Firstly remember when practicing that practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes better. When practicing with mild steel or paint stirrers it's easy to get into a "it doesn't matter, toss it away" attitude. You won't improve like that, after a few for practice, start treating that paint stirrer as some high dollar damascus, if you make a mistake correct the mistake. Don't practice with the attitude of it doesn't matter, it does.

Lock your elbows in to your sides, this makes YOU a more stable platform to work the steel.

Don't use your arms to move the piece side to side, sway your body with your arms locked to your sides. Yes you will look goofy but it works better that way. Don't try to cop a feel while dancing with your grinder :p

Grind with your weak hand first, it'll be easier for your strong hand to match the weak side grind rather than the other way around. Try to use your weak side as much as possible to train it. I do most of my profiling with my weak side.

I usually rough in the plunge with a coarse belt then "back" into it with a fine belt.

Steel is usually the cheapest thing in your shop (USUALLY!!!!) sometimes you just gotta know when to toss a blade into a bucket and walk away or fling it out into the yard.

Belts are the second cheapest thing in your shop. You'll find that you'll make most of your mistakes when trying to force a dull belt for just one more blade.

Well that's all I could think of, hope it helps someone.
 
Fred, Stephan & Will,
I can see that trying to over-extend belt life is obviously a no no in the kife shop. 1 "use sharp belts" and 2 "don't use dull belts" works for me. Seems comparable to using dull knives, higher chance of slipping and getting cut or turning you blade into scrap.

Will- your reminding me of when I was about 10 shooting indoor archery. My archery mentor used to tell me "Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice make perfect. Practice doing it wrong and it'll be ten times harder to get it right." I tend to be my own worst critic and strive for perfection. Even once I started shooting "perfect" scores in archery it wasn't good enough for me because 300 is a perfect score but unless it's a 300 with 60 x-rings then its not truly perfect. I think 300-56x was the closest I ever got to the goal.
Back to the point at hand, I have read about keeping arms pinned to your sides and moving your body side to side but thanks for re-affirming this as good technique for grinding. This is actually how I determined what higth to build the grinder bench so I'd naturally be in this position for grinding.
 
Ahhh a dot shooter :p I used to shoot ASA 3D. Same approach for practice, there's stress on the line so you need stress at practice :)

Never shot dots, nearby shop has a league but I went through a divorce and lost both my target bows. :( Was a co-op shooter for McPherson.
 
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